Exposing Gaslighting: What it Does to the Brain And How to Heal with Dr. Jennifer Fraser,

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Welcome to the Let's Talk Brain
Health podcast, a public health

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educational initiative of the
virtual Brain Health Center.

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I'm your host, Doctor Crystal
Color, and I'm so glad you're

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here.
On this podcast, I sit down with

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incredible guests to explore all
things brain health and

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Wellness.
Together, we'll talk about how

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to care for your total brain
health, mind, body, and spirit

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while sharing the latest brain
Health Science practical tips

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and strategies you can use every
day.

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By prioritizing your brain
health, you're taking an

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important step towards living a
happier, healthier life.

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So let's dive in and welcome
today's guest.

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Today's podcast guest is a
return popular episode where we

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are going to dive into a topic
that is related to what she

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spoke to us before about
bullying.

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Today she is back to talk to us
about gaslighting.

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Doctor Jennifer Frazier has been
studying and writing about

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cultures for over a decade.
Her PhD trained her to take

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different discourses out of
their silos and put them into an

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arena to see if the conversation
changed.

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When she put bullying into the
arena with neuroscience, she was

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shocked by how the conversation
shifted.

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We live in a culture that all
too often normalizes abuse and

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yet the research is clear all
forms of bullying abuse can do

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physical damage to brain
architecture.

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It's time for change new ways of
thinking and behaving.

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Jennifer is an award-winning
educator and author of five

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books.
Her latest book, The Gaslit

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Brain, tackles the way abusive
individuals in the workplace and

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in leadership positions can
manipulate others to believe in

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falsehoods and illusions.
The book's goal is to prevent

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trauma from gaslighting and to
teach readers how to resist its

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manipulative force.
Jen, welcome back to the

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podcast.
Is there anything else about

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your background you'd like to
share with our audience before

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we dive into today's topic?
Just for people who have very

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busy lives.
If you want to read more about

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this, I write a regular series
for Psychology Today called The

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Bullied Brain.
And I also am writing a regular

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sub stack very specifically
laser focused on gaslighting.

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So if you want quick reads and
you're interested in the

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science, the science mostly the
neuroscience is in Psychology

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Today, whereas the sub stack is
more about contemporary affairs.

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And we'll include links to those
in our show notes so our

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listeners can grab those right
away.

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I have to admit, I'm a fan of
both.

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That's how I found your work.
And I appreciate what you share

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on sub staff because we get
these, I think, opportunities in

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mainstream media, from stories
to new coverage, where it's

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like, hey, here's what's
happening here is how this

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applies to bullying and
gaslighting in today and what

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we're seeing.
And here's also a way to think

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about this critically or some
action steps that you can take.

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I'm so glad you are back on the
podcast as well as you always

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provide us expert insights and a
plethora of resources.

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So I think today before we even
get started, you spoke with us

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before about bullying in the
bully brain and how that impacts

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our brain health and Wellness,
How that research help lead you

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into this conversation of gas
lighting in the gas lit brain,

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which we're going to dive into
today.

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I had never even heard the word
gaslighting.

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It wasn't really part of my
vocabulary or how I thought

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about things or things I did or
relationships with other people.

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And I was in a workplace as
crystal where I reported

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psychological and physical abuse
being done to children.

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And I had heard from multiple
children and from multiple

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parents about psychological and
physical abuse, emotional abuse

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kind of thing.
And it was being done by

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teachers.
There were 4 teachers involved

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that had been reported on.
So it's my legal duty to go and

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inform the administration, which
is exactly what I did.

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And I also have to report to the
government, which I also did.

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So I went to my the leader of
the organization and I said, oh,

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here's what's happening.
Here's what they're doing.

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This is what they're saying.
This is the abuse, just

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documented it.
Here's physical abuse.

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Here's the psychological abuse.
And the leader looked up at me

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and I'd worked with this man for
eight years.

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He looked in my face and he
went, oh, that's just old school

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coaching.
Now that's gaslighting.

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Let me explain.
What is happening in that moment

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is that seemingly innocent
speech act is actually conveyed

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to my brain that I can't trust
myself.

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What he's saying is, oh, you
don't understand.

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You're not perceiving reality
correctly.

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You're seeing something that's
not even there.

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You're seeing abuse, but there
is no abuse.

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You're getting all confused.
You might even be a bit

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hysterical.
You might be insane actually,

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because really what's happening
is simply coaching sports.

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Like what's your problem?
And I think even for other

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people that are tuning in,
gasoline probably not a term

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we've heard recently until the
last few years.

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And I think there are these big
bucket areas we're going to talk

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about because not only in your
book, but likely in society that

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we've heard about this.
You've mentioned sports, I

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believe schools is another
popular place.

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Workplace is another one.
It can come down to sometimes

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relationships or those certain
didactics is where it comes out

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more prominently, usually when
someone has more of an

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authoritative position over
somebody else.

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Are there other areas where
you'd like to highlight or

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emphasize where people may have
these areas of gas lighting,

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just as an example?
All of us are very keyed into a

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media now that's in our houses.
It's with us day in, day out.

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Because of the way media
operates, we can now see people

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in very high level positions and
they speak very directly and

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they answer media questions and
they're in interviews and they

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make presentations.
So all of us in a sense are in

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the position to study how they
are conducting themselves and

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what they are doing with the
words that they're using, the

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stories they tell, what they
want us to focus.

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And it's really, if you are
interested in gaslighting and

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how someone might be trying to
make you doubt what you consider

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to be true or real or observable
fact.

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It's a great exercise to look at
immediate person being

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interviewed, a political figure
or a lawyer or a press

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secretary, and watch what
they're saying and how.

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Often times a fast way to notice
a gaslighting technique is they

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will be asked a question about
one thing, but they'll answer

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about something else.
Or they'll be asked to speak to

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an issue, but they'll accuse the
person of being out of line.

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And the question that they're
asking, that's gaslighting.

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So that instead of just having a
real and authentic exchange, oh,

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you're asking me a question
about this, let me answer.

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What you're doing is they're
asking you a question.

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You're like, I don't want you to
look at that and I don't want

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you to ask me questions about
that.

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Let me deflect attention
elsewhere and maybe even on you.

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I might deflect the attention
back on you like a boomerang so

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that really everyone stops
thinking about me and they start

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looking at you or a target
group.

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That's the other way that they
do it.

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I suspect that's a challenge we
can all accept now and see what

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we can notice a little bit
differently and what we observe

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in media or exchanges and
conversations we may have with

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others.
You share a bit about your own

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gas lighting experience.
How has that influenced your

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work and your writing into the
gaslit brain now that you're

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sharing out with others?
I had a sort of a series of

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layers that I was interested in.
A lot of times when people look

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at gaslighting, they focus on
the perpetrator and the target,

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but I wasn't interested in that.
I wasn't interested in personal

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relationships.
I was interested in the

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organizational psychology of it
all.

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I was looking big picture.
I could understand that a

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perpetrator, the person that
gaslights, the person that

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abuses, I could understand that
their brains were damaged.

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Just to sounds so harsh and I
almost hesitate to say it, but

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it is just factual.
Their brains are damaged.

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It can be seen on a brain scan.
I talk about it in the bullied

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brain.
I talk about the different ways

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in which a psychopath's brain, a
narcissist brain, a

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Machiavellian's brain, looks so
the dark triad.

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But what I was looking at in the
gaslit brain was how does that

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person manipulate the
administrators and the

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colleagues to fall in line with
their manipulation of reality?

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In other words, it can be very
obvious that someone is lying.

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We see people lie all the time,
and we see that our society

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doesn't know what to do about
it.

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It's not like lying has a
consequence.

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So we see people in positions of
great power and they're just

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lying repeatedly.
And our whole society is, we

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don't know what to do about
that.

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We're just going to document it
and business as usual.

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So that just gives you an
indication really about how

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little we understand about
manipulation, about how it

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impacts the brain, about how
dangerous it is.

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We're not even dealing with it
in a legal manner or regulation

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manner that controls it in a
sense.

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Crystal, what you could say is
we all understand and the laws

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are very clear.
You cannot hurt someone's body,

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but you can hurt their brains
over and over again with

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impunity.
And I find that really

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confusing.
My big question was I could

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understand the perpetrator.
I could understand how they

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scramble the brain of the
victim.

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What I couldn't understand is
why does the institution enable

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it and cover it up and protect
the abuser?

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Those were my biggest questions
in the Gaslight.

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Brain and I always find that to
be fascinating part of where

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neuroscience intersects with
society and we hear even this

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field of neuro law coming online
is like how do we start to

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protect people and their brains
in real time and with what we're

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knowing in the science as that's
changing, what do we do?

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And then yet we still have this
lag between by the time we have

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policy and protections in place.
And we always like to hope our

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podcast plays this little bit of
this public health education

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awareness piece of where we let
people know, here's what we know

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about the science, but what are
some of the things you can at

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least do for yourself if you
become more of an informed

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citizen?
What are some of the steps you

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can do if it's to stop and think
and pause and then put some

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barriers or protections just in
place for yourself today?

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And I think the topics that you
highlight on and do your

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advocacy work mostly around in
this bullying and gaslighting is

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this huge awareness piece where
it's almost mind blowing to

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think that these forms of
bullying and gaslighting impact

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the brain just as much as
physical abuse, this emotional

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social realm leave.
And those changes on brain

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scans.
That has always stuck with me

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from our conversations where
it's like it's there and it

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lingers.
And we know that carries over

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into other aspects of people's
health and also the interactions

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they have with others through
society.

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So it's like you can see how
these ripples continue beyond

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just the individual.
Exactly.

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I became very interested when
COVID struck because I work in

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this world and then COVID struck
and people are always telling me

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in my advocacy that the laws
can't change, it takes forever.

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It's really difficult.
It has to be studied.

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And my husband works in
emergency preparedness for the

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government.
And when COVID struck, he was

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changing laws every day left and
center.

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And the reason being is because
they had to stop the contagion.

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They had to stop the virus.
They had to ensure that it was

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not infecting large, larger and
larger swaths of the population.

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Really, the truth of it is
gaslighting, bullying, abuse.

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They are contagious.
They infect whole organizations.

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They infect society.
They're very dangerous.

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They cause much more negative
health impact than anything else

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in our world, any other disease.
And yet we never seem able to

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create laws.
I don't want to see anybody get

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into criminal justice system, or
that's not my goal.

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What I do believe is if you had
laws, just like we saw with

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smoking, when you put in laws
that said you can't smoke at

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work, nobody's smoking at work,
and everybody started to get

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educated about cancer and the
relationship to smoking.

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If we did the same thing with
bullying and abuse and lying and

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gaslighting and manipulating
people and thereby harming their

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brains and their inner workings
of their bodies, we would see a

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huge deterrence and we would get
educated.

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Leaders would know everything
about psychological safety

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00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,200
because it's going to impact
them.

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I think we're long overdue for
that change.

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And I suspect a lot of people
that have had these experiences

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in the most common places in
schools and arenas, in sports

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workplaces or multiple different
workplaces.

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00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,720
And it would push kind of those
bad characters out of those

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arenas and into the areas where
they get the help and the

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00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,560
support and let those that are
in there doing the work rise to

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the level where they were able
to thrive and be contributing

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00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,880
people rather than they are the
ones being pushed out of those

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spaces.
They're the ones pushed out of

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sports.
They're the ones pushed out of

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00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,760
schools or out of workplace
environments where they really

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00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,400
could have thrived.
Unfortunately, we see that being

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the reverse, but there's lots of
room for change here if a lot of

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us are rallying behind it.
I completely agree.

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00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,000
It's one of the things that most
amazed me in writing The Gaslit

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00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,040
Brain was that I finally
realized that the only truly

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00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,600
protected class in the workplace
is the abuser and the

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00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,560
whistleblower.
The truth tellers and the

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00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,200
victims will all be driven out
and they will be maltreated.

255
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It's unbelievable, but it's
unfortunately true and I do

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think we can change.
When I was working on the book,

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really what I finally got to you
and I think Crystal, this is

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where we really connect.
I'm a big believer in if society

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00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,320
is not going to make the change,
if they are going to go down a

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00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,800
particular path, that doesn't
mean you need to.

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00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,400
I love the idea that knowledge
is power and you can read all

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00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,160
these neuroscience strategies
that will help you stay far

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00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,440
safer from gaslighting and
emotional abuse and

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00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,840
psychological manipulation.
And I believe in your book, one

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00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,000
of the places you talk about how
can we start to support people

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is it starts in the home.
And so if we want to lean into a

267
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,680
little bit about how can parents
consciously build an environment

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00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,280
where children feel that they
can speak out and protect

269
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,240
themselves from potentially
being gas lit in the school

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00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,240
environment.
If this may be one of those

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00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,960
first arenas where young
children are introduced to this

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00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,880
as well as parents may now have
to navigate this with a child

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00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,800
and this begins in the home
where they are having these

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00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,600
conversations in private, what
are your recommendations for us?

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00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,560
The first one would be, I think
many parents have done this and

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00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,440
it's just a default that it has
to do with our own panic and our

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00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,240
own stress and our own desire
for our child to be safe.

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00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,160
And we end up gaslighting our
own kids.

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00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,000
Imagine you've got a six year
old, they fall off their bike

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00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,600
and they cut open their knee and
they start crying and they're

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00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,320
hurt.
They're getting the pain signal

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00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,000
from their brain and body.
And the parent says, oh, you're

283
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,440
fine.
You're just fine.

284
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000
You just get back up on your
bike, you're fine.

285
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,120
That's a form of gaslighting
because what you're doing in

286
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,560
that moment, although you don't
mean to, of course, but what

287
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,440
you're doing in that moment is
you're stopping the child from

288
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,280
trusting their own perception,
trusting their own feelings,

289
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,280
trusting the communication
they're getting from brain and

290
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,640
body.
You don't want to do that, of

291
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,760
course.
So all of us need to learn to

292
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,840
just try to catch ourselves when
we slip into those types of

293
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,080
behaviors.
And then the other critical

294
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,600
thing is the more parents get
educated on perpetrators and how

295
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,720
they behave, how they manipulate
and the profile that is attached

296
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,160
to them, they're going to be
much better able to accept very

297
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,040
difficult information.
Because what happens, and this

298
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,760
has been documented since Roland
Summit's work in the 1980s, what

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00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,480
happens is he refers to it as
the child sexual abuse

300
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,360
accommodation syndrome.
And what happens is the child

301
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,200
reports sexual abuse almost
always by a person that the

302
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,960
parent knows.
And the parent's response is

303
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,840
there's no way that's not
possible.

304
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,160
He couldn't have done that.
She never would have done that

305
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,599
in that moment.
Again, they're gaslighting their

306
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:11,440
own child and it's because their
own brain is self destructing on

307
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,960
a whole series of levels because
you can't believe something to

308
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,839
be true.
Now, what's really important is

309
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:18,720
for us to remember this in the
workplace.

310
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,079
You're in the workplace and next
thing your leader is announcing

311
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,520
that so and so is going to leave
because they've had a bit of a

312
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,880
breakdown and they're suffering
from mental illness of this kind

313
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,480
or the next.
And you have to believe that

314
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,240
because it's your leader, that
person has authority, position

315
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,320
of power, position of trust,
credibility and social standing.

316
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,680
Who are you to question that?
At the same time as going back

317
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,520
to something you said earlier,
Crystal, all of us have to

318
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,440
continually, especially in this
atmosphere right now, keep our

319
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,320
critical thinking, keep our
judgement at Bay, keep very

320
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,040
clear on the different ways in
which information is being

321
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,960
presented to us and by whom.
So the thing I would say to

322
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,120
parents is the most important
thing to know is perpetrators

323
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,480
are often highly charismatic,
highly intelligent.

324
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,120
They have advanced cognitive
empathy, which means they can

325
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,240
read you like a book.
They're not just going to

326
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,520
manipulate your child.
They've manipulated the higher

327
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,480
ups and they're going to
manipulate you.

328
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,320
And psychiatric experts succumb
to this kind of personality, the

329
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,760
dark triad.
It takes something like 20

330
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,040
minutes for them to confuse a
psychopathic.

331
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,560
An expert in psychopathology
who's across the table from them

332
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,120
within about 20 minutes will
start doubting their own

333
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,440
perception.
The people that are highly

334
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,920
skilled are at times the ones
that unfortunately are ones to

335
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,120
be weary of.
I'm a little hesitant to ask you

336
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,080
this question of what does
gaslighting look like though in

337
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,760
the advent of social media now
because I can only imagine the

338
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,160
prevalence and also how this may
take a different form with the

339
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,520
rise of social media and the
amount of teens and youth having

340
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,320
more exposure to social media
platforms.

341
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,280
There's two statistics that I
think answer the question very

342
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,200
painfully and very powerfully,
and to my mind, it makes the

343
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,200
lack of legal protections
absolutely inexcusable.

344
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,640
When Facebook was disseminated
and available to all college

345
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,560
students, all of a sudden
everybody could access it.

346
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,040
The beta was over, the pilot
studies everything.

347
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,040
All college students were able
to access Facebook.

348
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,320
They found that in a very short
period of time, depression in

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00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760
college students went up by over
80%.

350
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,240
Again, how is it possible that
you are allowed to have some

351
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,160
sort of a mechanism unregulated
that creates that sort of

352
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,120
damaging impact on the brain?
The other statistic that I think

353
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:54,400
everybody needs to know is from
early 2000s until 2018, they

354
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,640
have seen, so that's social
media.

355
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,960
The advent of it's just
everybody has it, all kids have

356
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:04,400
it, it's everywhere.
They've seen an increase of 57%

357
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,160
in youth suicide.
That's 10 year olds to 24 year

358
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,280
olds.
I just don't understand why

359
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,560
social media is allowed to do
what it does.

360
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,840
Be unregulated, be in the hands
of all kinds of children and

361
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,800
youth when we know that this is
what I mean.

362
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,680
If it was beating their bodies
up and killing them through

363
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,320
physical damage, we would have
all kinds of laws in place that

364
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,680
would protect them.
But because it's damaging their

365
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,920
brains, we have no laws that
protect them.

366
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,560
Well, and I think even in the
flip side of contact, sports

367
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,880
have become even more regulated
in the rules in the game of play

368
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,920
as neuroscience has evolved to
what we know of what impact can

369
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,600
do to developing brains.
And that has influenced and

370
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,560
swayed at least how sports are
regulated or when certain ages

371
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,240
can tackle and certain things
depending on the sports you're

372
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,120
looking at.
So it's just like you're saying,

373
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,040
if we're looking at comparing to
some of our arenas where it's

374
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,880
like we have neuroscience that
has made influence and we have

375
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,840
changed roles in the way that
children play or interact.

376
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,440
And then you have this Wild West
of social media.

377
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,480
And I know as someone that kind
of reads and follows along and

378
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,960
different arenas from the
behavioral health side and how

379
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,120
people interact, it's always
mind blowing to me on social

380
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:27,840
media where I just like to
remind people is you have entire

381
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,520
teams of people dedicated to
figure out how to hack your

382
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,720
brains to keep you engaged on
their platforms.

383
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,640
And then you have people that
have now engaged bots to just

384
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,320
keep you on.
And then when you hear the

385
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,040
statistics of the high
percentage of users being

386
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,600
bought, to have the divide of
whether it's politics or an

387
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,000
opinion about something, and
then that is used to exploit

388
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,000
people's focus and attention, it
is really scary as you start to

389
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,880
dig into just hearing these
different elements of it.

390
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,920
And never in my wildest dream
did you ever think that there

391
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,800
would just be rooms of people
that take what we know about the

392
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,400
neuroscience and actually
exploit it to that level rather

393
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,320
than just as you're saying, in
the same sense, having those

394
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,240
rooms of people thinking, what
are the safety features that we

395
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,960
put in so that it's not used to
those extents for people?

396
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,520
Because we do know of these
types of consequences in terms

397
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,840
of depression or anxiety or
overuse.

398
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,560
What are some of these backstops
that we at least put in now that

399
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,880
we have enough data to say this
isn't necessarily a good thing

400
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,840
in abundance or unregulated, but
we haven't gotten there.

401
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,240
We just have those teams that
are really just sitting there

402
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,560
saying how do we use this to
advantage?

403
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,520
How do we use it to monetize and
get ads and to keep you hooked

404
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,240
in this loop that then
unfortunately exploits your

405
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,120
brain?
It's amazing to me.

406
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:04,160
I cannot wrap my mind around it.
It's the tragic story of the boy

407
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,120
who was counseled very lovingly
by his chatbot to kill himself,

408
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,040
which he did.
And then what is the response to

409
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,000
that?
Oh, we're going to put in some

410
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,320
protections that parents can use
on what their children are doing

411
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,320
as if it's a parenting issue.
No, this isn't a parenting

412
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,640
issue.
This is absolutely highly

413
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,200
destructive content that your
platform is generating in a

414
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,200
really manipulative, addictive
way.

415
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,880
And you have no responsibility
or accountability.

416
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,680
The law doesn't do anything to
you.

417
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,800
The law won't let you go into a
store and steal something.

418
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,920
You can't walk into a store and
steal anything without a

419
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,160
criminal legal intervention.
But you can rob a child's life

420
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,560
no problem.
And their confidence, their

421
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,680
mental health, their health,
their everything.

422
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,280
I honestly find it it's one of
the most serious issues facing

423
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,120
society today.
And it is one where I think

424
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,040
you've seen a lot of people that
speak out a lot more around

425
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,360
ethics and accountability on
this.

426
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,520
And it is unfortunately these
tragic stories that you hear.

427
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,560
And at least the parents are
really taking a stand and

428
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,000
advocating.
And I've only heard parts of the

429
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,120
transcript of the one child that
with the interface of the GPT.

430
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,760
And you are just like, wow of
what was put back or reflected

431
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,200
back to the child from an AI
bot.

432
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,080
It is truly heartbreaking in
time that we have really to work

433
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,640
forward to and I think a lot of
advocacy and a lot of education.

434
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,240
Are there any other insights
that you want to share about

435
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,160
gaslighting in terms of the
younger generations that we need

436
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,600
to be aware of?
I think it's very important that

437
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,920
if we are going to put people in
front of children from an early

438
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,440
age, so all through their
development in terms of the

439
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,840
brain development, those are the
most critical years, the teenage

440
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,520
years, 13 to 25.
So we're looking at professors,

441
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,520
we're looking at coaches, we're
looking at teachers.

442
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,680
Those people have such
remarkable influence and control

443
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,720
and power over these young
people.

444
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,000
I think that there should be
really strong safeguards put in

445
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,120
place, just like they should be
on social media.

446
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,880
I'm not a big controlling
person, but I do think the kids

447
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,520
are very vulnerable.
And young people, especially up

448
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,200
to 25, when they have mature
brains, are very vulnerable.

449
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,040
The science tells us that.
And they are particularly

450
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,520
vulnerable in ways that social
media can exploit and teachers

451
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,400
and coaches and professors can
exploit.

452
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,440
So we need to have mechanisms
like an anonymous survey.

453
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,840
No kid should be in a class
where there isn't every six

454
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,080
months an anonymous survey
what's happening, what are you

455
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,840
experiencing, what are your
parents seeing, etcetera.

456
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,520
And then we need to have
oversight because we know that

457
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,320
administrators, all too often
they get worried about the wrong

458
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,760
things like their own
reputation, the reputation of

459
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,680
the school, the reputation of
the Sports Club.

460
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,600
They want to protect the
perpetrator.

461
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,320
They get scrambled.
That's what I write about a lot

462
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,360
in the Gaslight Brain.
I do a lot of the what are the

463
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:13,840
brain mechanisms that lead them
to make these terrible mistakes

464
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,480
where they cover up abuse.
So you have to have a higher

465
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,920
level of oversight on the
administrators.

466
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,520
And I think that would solve
upstream a huge amount of issues

467
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,720
that we as a society have to do
damage control on downstream.

468
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,200
We could stop a lot of that from
happening by having anonymous

469
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,960
surveys regularly in all areas
where children and youth are up

470
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,880
until 25.
And as well, an oversight for

471
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,880
all that data.
That data shouldn't just go to

472
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,480
conflict of interest
administrators.

473
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,560
It should also go into a larger
oversight body.

474
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,680
And hearing all of your thoughts
so far in our conversation up

475
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:56,840
today, are there ways where we
can spot a gaslighter or things

476
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,280
that we should know about?
Yes, The thing is, everybody

477
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,920
listening to this needs to
remember gaslighters are

478
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,680
remarkably manipulative.
If you get fooled by one, don't

479
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,200
beat yourself up.
The experts get fooled by them.

480
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,920
But that said, here's some of
the things to watch for.

481
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,840
You want to watch for somebody
who love bombs.

482
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,080
Love bombing is used in romantic
relationships, but it also can

483
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,880
apply to organizational culture,
to political leaders, et cetera.

484
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,800
And you can hear right in the
word that there's something

485
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,880
wrong.
So it's not authentic love

486
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,200
that's been offered to you.
It's love that isn't going to

487
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,080
create meaning and authenticity
and care and all these things.

488
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,920
It's going to bomb you.
It's going to destroy you and

489
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,640
blow up your life and cause all
kinds of trauma to you.

490
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,480
So you don't want it.
But what the person will do is

491
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,320
one of the things you can watch
for with the Gaslighter is they

492
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,800
put on, it's like the mask of
the psychopath.

493
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:51,240
They will put on different faces
depending on who they're talking

494
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,680
to.
So they're talking to you in the

495
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,280
house and they're being really
oppressive and unkind and so on.

496
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,760
Second, you go out the door,
they're being charming right

497
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,760
there.
You're seeing that there's

498
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,720
something off that's very off.
And if you're a person of

499
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,760
integrity and empathy, you often
turn that on the inside and you

500
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,880
go, what is it about me that
makes so and so behave that way?

501
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,440
This is the problem.
I saw this repeatedly in the

502
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,600
gaslit brain in my case studies
where these are very high level

503
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,360
professionals.
They would be completely gaslit

504
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,840
right to their face and they
would turn it on themselves and

505
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,920
start to try and figure out what
they've done wrong.

506
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,920
What is it about me that has
caused this to happen?

507
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,960
Because I have a lot of
integrity, so I want to make it

508
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,440
better.
And I also have a lot of

509
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,720
empathy.
So I really care about the group

510
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,760
and I have feelings for them.
And I know this person that's

511
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,360
maltreating me is like me.
No, they're not.

512
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,480
They don't have affective
empathy.

513
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,800
It's extinguished in their
brains.

514
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,360
They're very dangerous.
They have no feelings at all,

515
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,680
but they're very good at
mimicking when the person,

516
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,640
whether it's a church leader or
a political leader or the leader

517
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,560
of your organization, if they're
telling you how much they love

518
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,240
you and how great you are and
how they'll do anything for you

519
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,600
and they're going to save you
and they're going to protect

520
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,680
you.
Those kinds of things are red

521
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,840
flags.
They don't love you.

522
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,480
They don't even know you.
So why are they saying that you

523
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,320
should be?
That is a big red flag that

524
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,920
there's something off.
If they're putting on the face

525
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,040
of what you want to, let's say
you're a Christian and they act

526
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,000
like they're a Christian too,
but their track record shows

527
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,800
that they're not at all a
Christian.

528
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,880
Those discrepancies is where you
need to pay attention.

529
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,680
Always look at what the person's
track record is, What is it that

530
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,880
they have done and said, and
then compare it to how they're

531
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,520
speaking to you in the moment.
Do not listen to the voice in

532
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,680
the moment.
Look at the track record to

533
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,360
assess whether or not you can
trust them or not.

534
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,560
Thank you for giving us some of
those applied examples.

535
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Are there any other effective
ways that we can stop

536
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,480
gaslighting from invading our
lives?

537
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,640
I think that the more you
understand the perpetrator's

538
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,880
brain and the administrator's
brain, why the administrator

539
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,280
covers up, it's going to keep
you a lot healthier and happier

540
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,800
and high performing.
Because at a certain point, you

541
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,720
can't fix the administrator's
brain.

542
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,480
And if the administrator's brain
or the leader's brain is not

543
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,680
going to intervene and stop the
gaslighting from happening and

544
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,320
the bullying from happening, you
have to develop an exoplan.

545
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,240
You can't save yourself.
You can't change that world.

546
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,400
You do need to recognize that
it's incredibly destructive and

547
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,520
it will be so terrible for your
health and well-being.

548
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,360
You don't want to just say
that's it, I'm walking.

549
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,520
You want to be very strategic.
You want to stop trusting

550
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,800
anybody in that environment and
start drawing up with people you

551
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,160
do trust a really good exit
plan, Your next job, how it's

552
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,360
going to impact your finances,
your career, all those things.

553
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,600
Be utterly relentless.
I would start taping everything.

554
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,960
I would turn my phone on for all
conversations and record and I

555
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,400
would try and get as much in
text or e-mail.

556
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,760
If you're have to have those
kinds of private conversations,

557
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,360
turn your phone on.
Thank you so much for your

558
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,680
examples.
I'm curious now, what's next for

559
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,520
you or what next are you working
on?

560
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,040
My next book is called The
Liberated Brain, and I'm very

561
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,040
interested in the criminal
justice system for young people

562
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,880
and how it fails them, and I'm
really interested in changing

563
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,160
it.
I want to use a neuroscience

564
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,600
intervention so that instead of
incarcerating a kid for six

565
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,880
months or something, you give
them the option of doing the

566
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,960
brain training program.
And if they do the brain

567
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,600
training program, you teach them
how traumas affected their

568
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,480
brain, how they can make really
good decisions, how they can

569
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,360
manage their adolescent brain,
how they can use all kinds of

570
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,400
techniques and tools to have
health and happiness and high

571
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,000
performance, etcetera.
That's what I'm really

572
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,360
interested in.
But I'm interested in how all of

573
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,360
us are trapped in various ways.
We're beholden to various

574
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,080
things.
And this feeds into the fact

575
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,600
that we imprison children, which
is just unbelievable to me.

576
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,240
So yeah, that's what I'm really
excited about, is the idea of

577
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,760
liberation.
Conversation time always goes so

578
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,320
fast and we're winding down, but
I want to make sure we can give

579
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,240
our listeners some actionable
takeaways from you today.

580
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,960
I want to ask as you've been
studying bullying, gaslighting

581
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680
and now you've shared the next
thing for you on the liberated

582
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,960
brain, What if you're 1 non
negotiable for taking care of

583
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,960
your own brilliant brain?
Reading books.

584
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,760
That does not surprise me.
We run in our notebook club, so

585
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880
we love reading books over here
too as well.

586
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,000
How could listeners learn more
about you or follow your work?

587
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,280
My website isbulliedbrain.com, I
use bullied brain just as the

588
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,080
handle for everything.
So my Psychology Today is

589
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,720
bullied brain, the book is
bullied brain, my sub sex

590
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,040
bullied brain.
But yeah, everything about what

591
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,240
I'm doing is on that website and
I'm very open to talking to

592
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,080
people, doing anything I can to
help.

593
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,960
Do write me.
If it takes me a while to

594
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,480
answer, it's just because I'm
busy.

595
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,960
But there is a contact form.
I do tons of presentations and

596
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,840
workshops and I love to get into
organizations and get them to

597
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,280
let go of a bullying abuse
culture that has felt safe for a

598
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,400
long time and replace it with
something fabulous like a

599
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,720
neuroscience informed culture.
And all of our listeners can

600
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,360
grab those links in the show
notes below.

601
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,600
What do you hope our listeners
take away from our conversation

602
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,160
today?
It's a little bit of a sad

603
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,920
thing, but I believe that
knowledge is an empowering

604
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,520
thing, and the more we know,
even if it's about difficult

605
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800
material, the safer we can be
in, the safer we can keep other

606
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,000
people.
I really want everyone to

607
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,160
understand how dangerous
gaslighting is.

608
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,520
It's really dangerous, although
the law is not protecting us

609
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,800
from it right now.
I went back to what you were

610
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,680
saying before, Crystal.
It's moving in that direction.

611
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,680
In the book, I write about a
legal case in the United States

612
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,520
and a legal case in the in the
United Kingdom, and in both

613
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,000
places, gaslighting has entered
into the judge's decision.

614
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,600
I hope people will take a chance
to check out that book, and I

615
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,960
really hope today's conversation
helped shine a light on the

616
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,960
connection between gaslighting,
abuse cultures, and brain

617
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,320
health.
I thank our listeners for being

618
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,400
a part of this important
discussion.

619
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,040
Gaslighting doesn't only cause
emotional harm, it can also

620
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,920
create real changes in the
brain.

621
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,120
Recognizing it, naming it, and
challenging it are key steps

622
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,480
toward protecting yourself and
others.

623
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,960
Brain health is for everyone,
and part of that care means

624
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,480
safeguarding your brain from
manipulation and abuse.

625
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,440
Doctor Jennifer Frazier, thank
you so much for letting me pick

626
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,840
your brilliant brain on the
Let's Talk Brain Health podcast.

627
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,120
Thank you for investing your
time and energy into your

628
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,639
personal brain care by listening
to today's episode of the Let's

629
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:55,040
Talk Brain Health Podcast.
I hope our conversation gave you

630
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,800
fresh insights, a bit of
inspiration, or practical steps

631
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,040
that you can take on your own
personal brain care journey.

632
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,360
If you enjoyed today's
conversation, I'd like to ask

633
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,200
you to please share this episode
with someone who could benefit

634
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,720
from it or consider leaving us a
review.

635
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:14,480
If you have questions or a topic
in brain health you'd like me to

636
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,400
explore, please e-mail me
anytime at podcast at

637
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,080
virtualbrainhealthcenter.com.
I'd love to hear from you.

638
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,400
We have so many more exciting
topics ahead, and I can't wait

639
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,400
to continue this lifelong
journey of better brain health

640
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,680
together with you and our
growing virtual community.

641
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,200
Until next time, remember to
give your brain the care it

642
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,400
deserves and make your brain
health a priority.