From Burnout to Flow: How ADHD Shaped My Brain Health Journey with Jamie Toyne

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Your brain health matters.
Welcome to the Let's Talk Brain

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Health podcast from the virtual
Brain Health Center.

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Join the conversation on brain
health and Wellness with your

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expert host, Doctor Crystal
Color and respected guests.

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Discover ways to take charge of
your total brain health, mind,

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body, spirit.
Tune into the latest brain care

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news, science based tips and
practical strategies to build a

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better brain and live a brain
healthy lifestyle.

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By prioritizing your brain
health, you are taking an

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important step towards living a
happier, healthier life.

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Let's continue our brain care
journey together with our next

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guest.
Today we welcome our special

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guest Jamie Toyne to the Less
Talk Brain Health podcast.

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Jamie was diagnosed with ADHD as
a child and has burnt out three

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times in his career, once as a
professional tennis player and

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twice as a business owner.
After researching the connection

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between ADHD, burnout and flow,
Jamie developed coaching program

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called Flojo, which helps ADHD
founder secure burnout, harness

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their ADHD superpowers, and
start flowing towards their

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goals.
Jamie is also the author of The

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Pressure Gauge Mindset and
founder of two other companies

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called Deal Flow and Exit
Planner that helped more than

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400 entrepreneurs successfully
exit their business.

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Jamie, welcome to the podcast.
Is there anything else about

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your background that you'd like
our audience to know before we

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dive into today's topic?
Hey Crystal, lovely to be here.

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Whatever comes up will come up.
Well, perfect.

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I appreciate your willingness to
come on and share more about

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your story and your journey in
this broader brain health and

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Wellness space.
I'd like to ask a bit about your

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experience living with ADHD
because one of the things we

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talked about on the podcast is
all brains are unique.

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No2 are the same and yet our
brains make our story so very

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broadly to get us started today,
would you be willing to tell us

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about your brain story?
My brain story So I was born in

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Australia to a Greek mother and
an African father and adopted at

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birth by Anglo Australian
couple.

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I was born and raised in
Australia.

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I spent most of my childhood
years in a very small, remote

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town in the middle of Australia.
So for Americans, it's like the

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classic Outback in the middle of
the desert.

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And I was diagnosed with ADHD at
11 years old.

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I presented with all the classic
symptoms of hyperactivity and

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inattentiveness.
Yeah, very disruptive in the

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classroom.
School reports saying lots of

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potential but can't focus.
And, yeah, got into a lot of

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trouble at school.
And my diagnosis didn't really

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change anything.
In fact, I didn't really know

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fully that I had ADHD until I
was an adult and I sort of re

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explored that with my mom, but I
wasn't medicated or anything

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like that.
So I continued through childhood

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unmedicated and she wasn't a big
fan of the medication back then.

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And my experience as a child was
schools really cop a lot of

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negative attention, I suppose,
particularly from authority

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figures like teachers and stuff
like that.

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But I was very sporty, I was
very athletic and that was sort

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of my escape and it was where I
was able to focus and thrive.

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I was really, really lucky and I
played tennis and soccer and

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athletics.
And then at about 14, I really

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focused on the tennis, which
actually allowed me to move into

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state to Melbourne, which is one
of the biggest cities in

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Australia, and actually drop out
of school and finish my

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schooling by correspondence
remotely basically.

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And I joined the professional
men's tennis tour and just

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competed and did my studies on
the road with a tutor, which was

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really challenging.
I learned a lot of skills

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because I had to sort of manage
myself at a pretty young age,

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and that one to one attention
versus like being in a classroom

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sharing attention with 25 other
people was actually pretty good

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for my learning.
I had a very supportive mother.

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She's a social worker, so she
allowed me to move through life

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in a way that worked for my
brain.

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I appreciate you sharing your
story and you talked very

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candidly that there were some
skills that you used and how

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exercise may have been one of
those components and movement

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that's important for your own
care.

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Is there any other skills you'd
like to highlight that has been

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something that served you well
to date on your own brain care

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journey?
I think the biggest skill is

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harnessing your true nature and
not trying to fit yourself into

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someone else's mould or follow
someone else's path to success,

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which is really hard when you're
in a schooling system or a

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university system or a
workplace.

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Which is why a lot of
entrepreneurs, a lot of people

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with ADHD, creatives and artists
and entrepreneurs have self LED

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practices because they can
really design their work to work

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for their brain.
I guess the biggest skill I've

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developed really early, much
with the support of my mother,

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was to really do things my way.
I think that's such excellent

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learned skill that you might
have learned early in life with

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support from your mom, like you
shared.

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And to learn what supports our
own brain is very different.

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And it's a lot of conversations
most of us don't have until

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you're in an environment where
you're feeling different or as

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you mentioned, you talked about
how ADHD is often framed as a

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challenge, but you view it as a
superpower.

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Would you like to add any
insights into how did that

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redirect you into taking care of
yourself?

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ADHD didn't really, it became my
superpower in spells, but often

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it was like the unlocked
potential thing where they were

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like these moments of really
high performance and consistency

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and really excelling.
But mostly my childhood and my

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young adult and my 20s were
spent with a lot of inner

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turmoil and a lot of suffering
and a lot of frustration because

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I couldn't do the things that I
wanted to do even in my tennis

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career.
Obviously it went really well to

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a point.
And then when I sort of joined

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the pro circuit and it became
more of a serious career

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opportunity and I secured a
bunch of sponsorships, one

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including an investor who
basically just paid for

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everything, my travel, all my
living expenses and travel

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expenses and tournament entries
in exchange for 10% of the prize

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money.
At that moment, I experienced

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significant pressure.
And I would say that really what

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I was able to do on the tennis
court was drop into a flow

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state.
All the chaos and all the stress

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in my mind sort of dissipated
and I was able to experience

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peace.
I dropped out of my mind and

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into my body and I just knew
what to do and everything sort

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of effortlessly clicked into
play.

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So that was sort of like my
first real taste of flow.

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And then I would say that when
the pressure built up or

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circumstances changed, I sort of
switched from maybe a growth

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mindset to a more fixed mindset.
And on my 18th birthday, I burnt

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out and probably been burning
out for a year before that,

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traveling around and losing a
lot of tennis matches and

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feeling very frustrated.
I quit in a very dramatic

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fashion and that was that.
That was my first experience

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with burnout.
You've covered so many important

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topics that I think are of
interest to people where they

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likely see themselves or their
loved one in some aspect of what

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you shared.
And I know a big part of our

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conversation today was this idea
of flow.

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How can we cultivate that state
for ourselves?

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Or just like you said, a lot of
the times we recognize we're in

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flow after the fact because when
we're in the time just seems to

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go so quickly.
And I'd like to see if you had

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any more insights about that for
people that might be new to this

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idea of concept like yours came
when you were on the court and

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in your element, a skill you
knew really well.

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What would you like our
listeners to know about

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cultivating?
Flow.

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I became really obsessed with
Flow after my second burnout,

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which was I was running Emerges
and acquisitions company

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headquartered in San Francisco
at the time.

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And I had a very significant
burnout.

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And through my research, I
realized that flow is really the

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antidote to burnout in a lot of
ways, or at least it's the

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opposite state of existence.
When we're burned out while

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experiencing chronic exhaustion
both mentally and physically,

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we've got a negative attitude,
we're lacking motivation, our

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performance dips.
And if you look at flow state

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and the studies around that,
we're 500% more productive when

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we're in a flow state.
So if we can be in a flow state

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all of Monday, we could
essentially take the rest of the

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week off and achieve the same
amount.

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So it's quite significant and
our creativity explodes and

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we're energized.
And so I knew what experience I

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didn't want, which was the
experience and sensations of

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burnout.
And I wanted more flow.

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I wanted to feel good and like
I'm performing well.

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Everyone's experienced flow
many, many times before, whether

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it's on the sports field or
making art or cooking or

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gardening or having a deep
conversation, or it might be in

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the bedroom with intimacy.
I mean, there's just so many

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examples and we do experience
these moments.

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I think where flow becomes very
mysterious and very fleeting is

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in the workplace when we're
focused on tasks that are

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repetitive or potentially boring
and figuring out ways to sort of

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really tone out focus and get
into a flow state.

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There's a lot of neuroscience
now to suggest that we can

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trigger these flow states by
manipulating our neurobiology.

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So changing the brain wave
frequencies in our brain,

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dropping them from alpha to beta
to Theta, releasing certain

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neurotransmitters and
neurochemicals in the brain, and

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also reducing our cognitive
load, which is really just the

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prefrontal cortex that is
responsible for like planning

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and decision making.
It's also the part of the brain

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that overthinks everything.
When that's really active, it's

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impossible to get into a flow
state.

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That's the neuroanatomical
changes that happen in the brain

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when we insert a first thing.
There's intrinsic motivation.

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There's a bunch of things that
go into flow, but being able to

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trigger a flow state on a daily
basis, the primary thing is

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being able to focus.
You need to be in a focus state

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for at least 20 minutes before
you can expect to enter a flow

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state.
And it's not going to be that

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you'll enter one.
But again, there's like music

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you can play to manipulate brain
waves.

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There's all kinds of things you
can do, yoga, breath work.

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So I became really obsessed with
flow after my second burnout and

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I really focused of entering a
flow state.

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So I really learned that and
mastered that to a degree.

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But I actually burnt out for a
third time.

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And it was a very different
burnout because the first two

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were very career focused.
One in my tennis career, one in

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my entrepreneurial career.
The third one, I was actually

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really performing quite well.
I published my first book.

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I had launched a new software
company.

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I was doing quite well
professionally, but my personal

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life fell apart and I sort of
burnt out in my personal life.

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And that's when I started to
look at flow a little bit

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differently.
And I started switching over to

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the East and looking at sort of
really studying like Eastern

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philosophy because the concept
of flow has actually been around

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for whatever millennia.
The ancient Greeks called it

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enthusiasmos, the Taoist monks
called it wuwei, the Zen

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Buddhist called it zazan.
And I started looking into the

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history of flow.
And we have a habit of this in

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the West.
We sort of take concepts that

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are provided from Eastern
philosophy, and then we only

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focus on what we can measure and
quantify through math and

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science.
And so I think flow has become

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this very narrow lens of bio
which can almost guarantee high

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performance consistently, but
you can still burn out.

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That was really at the point
that I decided to go really deep

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on the neuroscience behind my
ADHD turn out and also flow and

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also just mixing in some of
those ancient principles of

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harmonization and balance.
That really led me to come up

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with design a program called
Flojo that really is focused on

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helping creatives and
entrepreneurs with ADHD that are

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looking to go from a state of
burnout to flow.

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And I call that that sort of
state of being Flojo.

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And actually interestingly,
Flojo, I made-up that word, but

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really what I did is I took the
word flow and then I took the

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word mojo.
Are you familiar with that word?

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Mojo is actually an Afro
Caribbean word.

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So the Yoruban people from I
think Nigeria, when they got

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dropped off on slave ships in
Cuba on their way to America,

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sort of a fusion of those two
cultures.

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And they came up with this word
mojo.

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And it means unique magical
power, which is really cool.

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And the reason I matched those
two words together is because

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Flojo is about like harnessing
your true nature.

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So making your ADHD your
superpower.

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It's really like designing your
life in a way that everything

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aligns to your true nature and
who you are and making that your

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competitive edge.
And at that point, I think

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started to flow a little bit
better in my life, not just

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professionally but also
personally.

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I love the word match up as soon
as you explained it.

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It makes perfect sense for what
you would know about wanting to

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cultivate a flow state.
And I think this has been a

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common emerging type of
conversation.

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We're just talking performance.
You want it in your work

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environment, sports settings
have their own criteria, but

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also for a lot of us in
day-to-day life where we're

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starting to realize we have some
control over cultivating more

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emotional type states, ideally
for better cognitive

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performance.
I mean, before it just kind of

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seemed like if I go into this
space and for a lot of us tuning

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in, it might be in nature.
You kind of know how you feel

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when you're in there or what
happens afterwards.

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But the idea that we can
intentionally build practices or

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things in our environment into
our day-to-day lives I think is

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more of a important
conversation.

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You hit on the buzz term
biohacking.

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A lot of us look at our
environment.

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Do you have any tips for people
who might just be starting to

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think of, I have recognition of
what slow is or I've had this

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state of flow in my own life.
So to recap or to highlight for

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individuals, it's the idea of
when you've been immersed in an

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activity, typically it's one
that you're passionate about or

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something that uses your skills
appropriately.

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And time just passed.
Next thing you know, you look up

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it's hours and it was
effortless.

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So I will say that's very broad,
but if people want to cultivate

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more of that, do you have any
tips or something as a starting

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place where maybe they could go
to have more of this flow

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intentionally in their lives?
What is your natural state of

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being?
We experience flow all the time

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as kids.
When we're playing, we're really

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creative.
We experience time dilation all

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the time as kids, and we're
completely immersed in the

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present moment.
It's when we get older and life

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00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,680
becomes a bit more complicated
that we get pulled out of the

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00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,120
present moment and start
focusing on past and future.

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If flow is your natural state of
being, the goal is really to

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just get back to that
homeostasis, like your true

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00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,080
nature.
It's about stripping away the

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00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,600
conditioning.
And what that could look like is

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basically just removing the
things that block you from flow.

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So when we biohack, we're often
adding things.

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I've got to go to the gym, I've
got to go to the store, I've got

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to change my diet, I've got to
do, and those things work.

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00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,560
But if there's something
fundamentally blocked, for

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00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,520
example, if something's so out
of alignment, the work you're

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doing makes you miserable, or
the customers that you serve,

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00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,440
you don't actually align with
your values and you're helping

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00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,160
nasty rich people get richer or
something like that.

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00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,240
No amount of sauna and ice bars
is going to help you get into a

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00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,880
flow state because the intrinsic
motivation is not there because

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something's misaligned.
So really trying to identify

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00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,320
what is blocking you from flow.
And so I break that down into a

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00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,680
few different categories, but
one of the big ones is

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00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,520
alignment, which I'm talking
about.

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00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,520
And the easiest way, if you're
like, how do I know if

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00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,440
something's like a flow blocker
or something I need to address?

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00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,680
The easiest way I can explain it
is if you put energy into

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00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,240
something and that energy does
not flow back to you, at least

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00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,800
the equal amount of energy that
you put in, then something about

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00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,240
that is unaligned.
And in some relationships or

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00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,680
some tasks or responsibilities
that you have to do, sometimes

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00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,760
it's a complete drain of your
energy.

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00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,200
Like you put all this energy in
and you get absolutely nothing

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00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,960
back.
And they're usually the big

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00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,960
blockers or what I call
boulders.

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00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,160
I want to start with that
because I think that's actually

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00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:16,840
much more important.
And if all you're really trying

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00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,840
to do is createspace for flow to
naturally emerge with the

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00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,600
biohacking stuff, you're just
looking for some quick sort of

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00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,480
tips to get started tomorrow.
The three like foundational

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00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,960
things that I talk about all the
time are really boring, but so

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00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,920
true is nutrition, exercise and
sleep.

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00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,440
They're foundational piece.
If you're not nailing those

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00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,480
three, don't worry about saunas
and ice blast.

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00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,240
Just get that sorted.
But then obviously I listen to

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00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,840
music that is designed to get my
brain waves into a certain

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00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,680
state, like gamma and Theta
wavelength music.

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00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,040
I Mihai chick sent Mihai, who's
sort of seen as the godfather of

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00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,480
flow and it's sort of Western
form.

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00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,360
He's a psychologist, an amazing
man, and he talks about the flow

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00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,480
channel.
So if you can picture in your

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00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,440
mind an XY axis, you have the
challenge of the task that

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00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,520
you're doing on the vertical
axis, and on the horizontal axis

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00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,160
you have the skill level.
If you chart your task or the

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00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,040
project that you're responsible
for in that graph, basically

328
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,280
you're wanting to find the
perfect balance between

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00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,520
challenge and skill.
If the challenge far exceeds

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00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,839
your skill level, you're going
to experience stress and anxiety

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00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,280
and it's going to pull you out
of the present moment and you're

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00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,040
not going to be able to enter a
flow state.

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00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,080
If your skill far outweighs the
challenge, you're going to

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00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,560
experience boredom and apathy.
Really, it's about getting that

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00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,680
balance between challenge and
skill right.

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00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,840
Even if you're responsible for
boring, repetitive tasks, you

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00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,560
can make it more challenging by
reducing the time box that you

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00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,360
attribute to it.
So if it usually takes you an

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00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,800
hour to plug in and do your
bookkeeping, try and do it in 25

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00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,920
minutes and put some fun music
on while you do it, and you

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00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,600
might be able to get into flow
that way.

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00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,960
A general rule of thumb is that
you're wanting the challenge to

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00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,080
exceed your level of skill by
about 4%.

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00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,440
This is not science.
This is just something that

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00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,520
Steven Cutler and Mihai Chick
sent me how to talk about.

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00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,360
But if you can sort of picture
that, it's a little bit of a

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00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:12,040
Ridge, but it's not too much of
A Ridge.

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00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,160
Cal Newport's work on deep work,
his book, is really, really

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00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,160
incredible.
Really protecting time,

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00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,640
uninterrupted time, and really
safeguarding that.

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00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,800
There are hundreds of
interventions that I sort of go

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00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,640
through in my program, but there
are a few to mention now.

353
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,080
I appreciate you doing the broad
brush stroke because we get

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00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,320
about 30 minutes to pick experts
brains and there has to be

355
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,400
something in there that peaks
people's interest.

356
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,640
And I think a lot of this makes
me think about brain health is

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00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,840
there's a lot of options that
you have and it's finding what's

358
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,800
resonating with you now in
today's moment.

359
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,320
And to also recognize, I will
share to my extent too, that

360
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,000
I've had three episodes of
Burnout myself and how different

361
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,840
they were.
And I remember my last one, once

362
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,520
I recognized it, the strategies
I used for my first two episodes

363
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,480
of Burnout weren't filling my
needs in the third time around.

364
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,800
And so it was like, OK, now what
else are things I need to

365
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,240
explore that would fit where I'm
at now?

366
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,480
What am I open to trying?
Sometimes we overlook that we

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00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,600
have this toolbox we use that we
rely on a lot.

368
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,760
And we get in this scenario,
we're like, you know what?

369
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,840
Breath work usually gets me
through it not working this

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00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,600
time.
Or like you mentioned some of

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00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,280
the other ones like pull bass or
sauna you might not have access

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00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,080
to more regularly as you're
wanting to use it.

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00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,120
But it's like this can be part
of my monthly routine or things

374
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,920
I do as maintenance.
But when I'm nitty gritty

375
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,120
day-to-day skills, what is
actually something I can tap

376
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,760
into and use and explore?
So I'm so glad you did the broad

377
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,760
brush stroke because I think
there's a lot for us to think

378
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,000
about what fits for us.
And I do say sometimes that's

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00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,720
the discredit.
We hear these great things and

380
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,400
it's working for everyone else.
And then we try it and we're

381
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,440
like, why isn't it working for
me?

382
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,040
And we tend to put the blame and
onus on ourselves.

383
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,680
And just like you said, doing
that mindset shift.

384
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,400
You know what, this is an
option.

385
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,480
It doesn't work for me now.
Maybe I revisit it in another

386
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,080
point in time and not having the
judgment of all of this works

387
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,680
for people who I know that might
have similar symptoms or

388
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,920
navigating this challenge, but
it's not doing me any good and I

389
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,760
failed.
Cliche, yet another thing.

390
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,520
It's important to know that.
And so I'm so glad you

391
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,800
highlighted lots of different
things in there for us and

392
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,720
reflecting back to you.
Is there anything else you'd

393
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,560
like to elaborate on?
The main point I want to drill

394
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,840
home is focus on removing the
blockers first, then worry about

395
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,000
what flow triggers you can add
because the impact of removing a

396
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,880
significant blocker is going to
generate infinitely more flow

397
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,920
and it's going to be a lot
easier than adding something.

398
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,600
And the other thing I would
mention just in terms of my

399
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,000
burnouts, I mean, they all
occurred for different reasons

400
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,920
in a way.
But the common thread between

401
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,840
all three burnouts is the
relationship I had with myself.

402
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,960
And I'm very enthusiastic about
a particular type of

403
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,040
psychotherapy, which is called
internal family systems.

404
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,960
The concept is that we're
made-up of different parts.

405
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,200
You can call them alter egos,
you can call them whatever.

406
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,000
And these parts essentially
there to sort of protect the

407
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,360
vulnerable part of us that was
basically who we were as a child

408
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,800
and the experiences that we have
and the beliefs and fears that

409
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,480
limit us in ways.
When I think about Bernard, I

410
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,640
think about two particular parts
of myself.

411
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,160
One is I call my higher self or
the general, and that's my

412
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,000
prefrontal cortex.
If you want to bring it into a

413
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,440
brain that's setting the vision
and the strategy and setting out

414
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,280
the planning and writing the to
do lists.

415
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,240
And then the other part is the
lower self or what I call the

416
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,960
workhorse.
And that's the one that's

417
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,560
responsible for actually doing
the work.

418
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,200
It's the one that has to sit in
front of the computer.

419
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,760
It's the one that has to jump on
the tennis court.

420
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:52,520
It's one that has to make
dinner.

421
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:57,320
And that relationship in all
three burnouts was so toxic for

422
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,160
so long that something
physically sort of snapped

423
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,200
inside of me, I would say.
And these really big moments and

424
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,240
my second burnout, I was living
in Mexico running a very

425
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,120
successful company and I took a
six month hiatus and stepped

426
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,200
down as the CEO and went back to
my tiny town.

427
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,960
And in the middle of Australia
and my tennis career, I smashed

428
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,280
all my rackets in front of
hundreds of fans and forfeited

429
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,360
the match and never played
again.

430
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,600
I wouldn't say I had a very good
awareness of burnout.

431
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,040
It really happened and it was
like enough was enough.

432
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,800
But just to give you an example
of these two parts of how they

433
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,040
can communicate and work with
each other, My higher self will

434
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,520
often set very ambitious goals
with very unrealistic timelines

435
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,600
and deadlines and essentially
sets my lower self up for

436
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440
failure.
Instead of getting that

437
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,520
beautiful naturally occurring
dopamine hit of like getting to

438
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,520
the end of the day and like
ticking off everything in my To

439
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,240
Do List or getting to the end of
the week and finishing a

440
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,920
project, I constantly feel like
I'm failing.

441
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,400
And when you constantly feel
like you're failing and you

442
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,240
start to feel really dejected
and you feel a lack of energy

443
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,200
and a lack of motivation and you
start to rebel against yourself.

444
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,040
And I think that's something
that particularly for people

445
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,560
with ADHD or people experiencing
difficulties with focus, with

446
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,400
the integration of digital
technology, we can really rebel

447
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,000
against ourselves.
And that's how lower self

448
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,760
basically going how I don't want
to do this because you're

449
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,600
setting out for failure.
And doesn't matter if I do it or

450
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,360
not, I'm not going to be happy
at the end of it.

451
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,680
And I think the approach that we
are taught as kids and adults to

452
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,520
achieve our goals, we need a
carrot and we need a stick.

453
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,200
We need the discipline stick to
whack ourselves with, and we

454
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,120
need the carrot to dangle ahead
of ourselves.

455
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,840
And the problem is it's all very
well to use that as a technique

456
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,800
if your higher self actually
allows your lower self to eat

457
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,640
the carrot when they achieve
something and actually sets them

458
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,040
up for success.
It's deep psychological stuff

459
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,920
that isn't easy to fix, but I
think having an awareness of it

460
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,720
and starting to proactively
build that relationship between

461
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,560
those two parts of yourself can
go a really, really long way.

462
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,920
Just to ground that into like a
practical example.

463
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200
When you write your To Do List
at the end of the day, and if

464
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,080
you don't, you should, you
should write your To Do List for

465
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,040
tomorrow.
At the end of the day, attribute

466
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,160
like a number of hours or how
much time it's going to take to

467
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,880
complete those tasks.
And write those tasks out in a

468
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,840
really respectful way so that
when you wake up in the morning

469
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,000
and your lower self tired or
stressed or whatever, they're

470
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,840
very clear on what they have to
do on their To Do List.

471
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,360
And don't set yourself up for
failure.

472
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,960
Set yourself up for success.
That's just a very simple

473
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,720
example, but it's one that I
would say 8 out of 10 clients

474
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,200
aren't doing, at least when we
start working together.

475
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,920
We had the nice way of bringing
the whole story to make it very

476
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,720
practical for all of us, and I
regret we've covered so much

477
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,880
ground with you.
We're winding down our time, So

478
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,440
what we tend to do at the end of
our podcast is just a few rapid

479
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,600
fire questions I'd like to ask
to begin.

480
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,160
What is 1 resource?
I'll do this broad book quote

481
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,160
podcast research study that
shifted your thinking on the

482
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:56,560
brain flow, burnout or ADHD.
It's a very short poem by

483
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,680
Porsche Nelson, and it's called
There's a Hole in My Sidewalk.

484
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,720
I will make sure to include a
link to that below in our show

485
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,520
notes for our listeners, as well
as a link to your book.

486
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,360
Where can our people find you?
I'm actually relatively

487
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,120
invisible online to protect my
focus and for my ADHD, so I'm

488
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,920
not on social media.
I have a website which is Jamie

489
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:25,400
toyne.com.
That's J AM i.e toyne.com.

490
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,920
And on that website I have a
free diagnostic tool that

491
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,080
measures the level of burnout
you're experiencing versus flow

492
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,360
and identifies what factors or
what things are blocking you

493
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,520
from flow and a few easy, simple
tips on things you can do to

494
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,240
remove those blockers and get
more flow.

495
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,000
So that's on my website.
It's my website forward slash

496
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:55,320
flowjo which is FLOWJO Dash
Finder Finder.

497
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,880
And we will put the links below
for anyone tuning in so they can

498
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,880
quickly find to you.
I want to ask one bit of a

499
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,440
personal question for you
because we've covered a lot in

500
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,760
today's episode.
What is your one non negotiable

501
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,640
for taking care of your own
brain?

502
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280
Sleep.
I will literally cancel

503
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,720
appointments in the morning if I
have a sleepless night and I

504
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,680
will sleep in till 9:00 or 10:00
AM if I need to because I can't

505
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,720
get into flow.
I'm not going to have a

506
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,240
productive day.
I'm very vigilant and very

507
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,600
enthusiastic about my sleep.
Thank you for sharing that.

508
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,800
We know we all are balancing our
own brains unique needs, and

509
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,760
sleep tends to be one.
A lot of us have to put in work

510
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,680
and effort to be our best
selves.

511
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,120
As we wind down today, what's
the one final insight or action

512
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,080
that you want our listeners to
take away from our conversation

513
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,920
today?
Identify what's blocking you

514
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,520
from flow and remove it.
I hope today's episode in our

515
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,760
conversation with Jamie sparks
some action for anyone that's

516
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,840
trying to find different ways to
take care of their brain.

517
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,400
Jamie, thank you so much for
letting me pick your brilliant

518
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,840
brain on the Let's Talk Brain
Health podcast.

519
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,680
Thank you for investing in your
personal brain care.

520
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,520
By listening to this episode, We
hope Let's Talk Brain Health has

521
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,160
provided new insights,
inspiration, and action steps to

522
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,560
support your personal brain
health journey.

523
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,960
We encourage you to continue
learning about brain Health

524
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,920
Science and hope you will share
our podcast with others.

525
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,080
We look forward to exploring
more topics related to

526
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:37,320
brainhealthinfutureepisodesemailpodcast@virtualbrainhealthcenter.com
with questions or topics of

527
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,600
interest.
We are here for you.

528
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,280
Until next time, may you give
your brain the care it deserves.

529
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,680
Make your brain health a
priority.