Gaslighting and Brain Health: Recognizing Manipulation and Protecting Your Mind with Dr. Jennifer Fraser, Ph.D.

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Welcome to the Let's Talk Brain
Health podcast, a public health

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educational initiative of the
virtual Brain Health Center.

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I'm your host, Doctor Crystal
Color, and I'm so glad you're

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here.
On this podcast, I sit down with

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incredible guests to explore all
things brain health and

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Wellness.
Together, we'll talk about how

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to care for your total brain
health, mind, body, and spirit

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while sharing the latest brain
Health Science practical tips

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and strategies you can use
everyday.

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By prioritizing your brain
health, you're taking an

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important step towards living a
happier, healthier life.

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So let's dive in and welcome
today's guest.

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Welcome to the largest neuronal
gathering today in the kickoff

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of Brain Week 2026.
Today we are naming something

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many people feel but struggle to
explain, the experience of

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questioning your own memory,
your own perception, your own

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sense of reality.
What once felt isolating now has

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language.
And we all know that language

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matters.
We are honored to welcome back

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Doctor Jennifer Frazier, author
of The Gas Flip Brain.

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Her work connects bullying,
gaslighting, institutional

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behavior, and neuroscience with
clarity and evidence.

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This conversation goes beyond
identifying harm.

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We will examine what happens in
the brain under chronic

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intentional manipulation.
We will explore patterns and we

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will focus on strengthening the
skills that protect neurological

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and physiological safety.
I'm joined by my Neuronal Co

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host, Heather Elwell of Brain
Health Mentors who will

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introduce today's guest.
Doctor Jennifer Frazier is the

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author of four books and an
international expert on bullying

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and abuse.
After getting her PhD in

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Comparative Literature from the
University of Toronto in 1996,

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she held a faculty position
there until 2003.

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She later became an
award-winning teacher at 2

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university prep schools in
Victoria, BC.

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In 2017, following an
institutional cover up of abuse

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towards one of her students, she
left the educational system to

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found the bullied brain.
Bullied brain.com.

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Doctor Frazier is asked for
comment by media when bullying

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and abuse cases are in the news.
Her latest book, The Bully

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Brain, has been reviewed on news
channels including CTVABC in

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Portland, Global News, the
Canadian Broadcasting

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Corporation and CP24.
In addition, Pulitzer Prize

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winning journalist Rob Cribb
wrote about her work in the

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Toronto Star.
Thank you, Doctor Frazier, for

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spending your time with us
today.

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We really appreciate it.
I have something I'd like to

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share.
When you joined us in July 2024

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to talk about the Bullied brain,
the warning signs were already

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present in your research.
Now, watching events unfold

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since publishing The Gaslit
Brain, does it feel like your

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work anticipated this moment?
Or has the speed of cultural

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awareness surprised you?
Heather, I would say that it has

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been so slow for many people.
I think they feel that there's

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this kind of momentum.
But I've been studying

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gaslighting.
I was exposed to gaslighting 10

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years ago.
Once you start to see it and

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once you start to study it, you
literally cannot Unsee it.

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So for me, there's not enough
momentum.

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It should be much faster, much
more intense, much more full of

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demands for accountability.
Doctor Frazier, welcome back.

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You have been a friend of our
virtual Brain Health Center for

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a couple of years now.
We've had you on the podcast

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twice.
I will put a link in the show

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notes below.
You've been back on the book

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club, so it's been a year and a
half.

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Time flies, it seems like, but
the work you've been doing just

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keeps growing and mounting.
So appreciate you returning back

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to have a conversation with us
as well as to kick off and to

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learn about all the work that
you have been growing advocating

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for it since our previous
conversation.

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So thank you so much for joining
us again.

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It's great to be with you
always, Crystal.

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And I love to talk to Heather.
Yeah, no problem.

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Doctor Frazier Gaslighting was
not a common term in everyday

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conversation until recently.
In 2022, Merriam Webster named

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it Word of the Year after a
dramatic surge in searches.

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What did that moment signal to
you about what people were

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experiencing?
I think that it's one of those

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really destructive behaviors
that people are starting to

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realize the repercussions.
So we hear a lot about workplace

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dysfunction.
We hear a lot about geopolitical

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manipulation.
I think it's very front of mind

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for us.
We are tapped into gaslighting.

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We're trying to figure out what
is it, what does it do?

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Why is it dangerous?
How can I stop it?

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And yeah, that Merriam Webster,
when they came in with it 2022,

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I was really, I was amazed.
How do we distinguish between

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normal conflict and true
gaslighting?

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In a normal conflict, both
parties are trying to assert

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their perspective, their
experience of reality, what it

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was like for them.
There's empathy happening.

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So they're looking at each other
and trying to figure out if,

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wait a SEC, if I was walking in
your shoes, the way you're

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explaining it to me, oh, I might
have a different reaction.

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That's not how it felt to me.
That is normal human conflict

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attempts to understand, find a
resolution.

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But when you're dealing with a
gaslighter, that person is lying

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to you, and they're lying to you
in a very specific way where

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their goal is to destabilize
you.

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They are in the practice or act
of misleading you.

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So it's not authentic, it's not
transparent, and it's not

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honest.
It's false.

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This is such important
information.

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How does language itself
function as a tool of

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manipulation?
The way I think about this is I

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imagine a courtroom, and it's a
really good exercise for people.

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So when you're in a courtroom,
language is how the decision

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will be made.
Yes, there's evidence, and yes,

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there's all kinds of ways in
which we prove something, but

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the bottom line is it hinges on
language.

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And we all know you can sway a
jury or a judge by the words

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that you use to articulate what
happened.

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You can create emotional
reactions, you can create

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ethical reactions in people.
So language is the name of the

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game.
And gaslighters, unfortunately

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for the rest of us, are
extremely adept at applying

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language.
They can distort reality by

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using language.
And to give you a good example

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of this is taken straight out of
neuroscience.

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Let's say the three of us, we're
looking at an ice pick and a

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hammer and a chainsaw.
The three of us would say, OK,

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we're working to build something
and these are tools.

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But what we're not recognizing,
and this is where the danger can

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come in terms of language, is
the gaslighter is looking at the

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chainsaw, the hammer and the ice
pick, and she is saying those

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are murder weapons and I'm going
to use them that way.

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And they're never going to
figure it out because they

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believe that we're all dealing
with tools.

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They don't know what I'm going
to do.

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This is where language is
everything when it comes to

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gaslighting.
I feel like there's so many

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things to unpack around this
topic because just like you

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said, a lot of us have had these
experiences, but we didn't know

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what the word was to call as
their label and how important

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the language was.
And when we talk about

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gaslighting, I feel like it's so
hard to not talk about bullying.

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Even though this was your
previous book, I want to spend a

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few moments to at least
acknowledge this bullying

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conversation because one of the
things that really stood out to

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me in your book around the
gaslit Brain was this phrase.

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And I suspect every person
tuning in has had this

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experience or they've had a
conversation with someone that

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has said this exact phrase.
I was bullied because, and they

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give the reason.
Why is that phrase so

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detrimental for what you argue
about in your book?

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And why should we realize that
is a phrase we need to remove

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from our vocabulary and shift
the blame to who the blame

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belongs to because it's not us.
I should never be saying that in

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my story.
I was bullied because.

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Tell us about your argument in
the book, please.

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If you say I was bullied because
it's a red flag to yourself and

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anyone who's listening to you
that you are gaslit, what

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gaslighters do is they project
onto you their own issue.

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If you were being bullied and
the person is trying to

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humiliate you, they're trying to
degrade you, chances are

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extremely good, and this is
backed by decades of research,

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that individual feels
humiliated, they feel degraded,

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and the way in which they're
trying to manage their own

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trauma is by landing this at
your feet.

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A really quick way for people to
understand how this works,

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because gaslighting is actually
very hard to understand.

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It's complex.
And it's complex not because

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it's complicated.
It's complex because our brains

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are not designed to understand
that the person is aligned to

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our face.
We are built, our brains are

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built to trust one another.
You're asking your brain to go

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against its natural impulse,
which is to connect and to trust

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and to have that bond with
another human being.

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You're telling your brain no,
you have to be on high alert,

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you need to be very careful, you
need to look, etcetera.

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You have to watch their words
and that's really hard work for

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the brain.
So that's why we struggle when

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we try to have these
conversations about gaslighting.

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But basically bullying, if you
pare it down to it's essentials,

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it's two essential lies.
The first lie is you are not

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worthy.
The second lie is you do not

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belong.
As we know from history, as we

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know from present day, those
individuals who are abusive can

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build entire structures, social
structures around these two

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lies.
So basically when you say I was

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bullied, really what you want to
say is by a liar, I was bullied

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because and then put forward
whatever it is that they said to

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you because really you shouldn't
be believing in their lies.

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You should be very clear the
line between their harmful

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behavior and you're simply being
on the receiving end of it.

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And this is complicated by
institutional complicity.

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Because if you go and report in
the workplace, I've been bullied

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or harassed by someone, they sit
you and the other person down.

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They even do this to kids in
school.

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And they say this is an
interpersonal problem, as if you

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have 50% of the responsibility
for the fact that this person is

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abusing you, which is really,
it's really unhealthy.

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I'm going to give you one last
example that I hope clinches

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this for people in North America
anyway.

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And this is not true in other
countries, But in North America

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and in Europe, if you are raped,
you are raped.

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It's not something that you
caused.

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It's something that happened to
you.

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And then the rapist is having to
figure out and answer the

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questions and explain
themselves.

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Back in the day, not so long
ago, if you were raped, the

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fault would be with you.
It would be you caused this.

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You went to this club, or you
went to this apartment, or you

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drank alcohol, or you dressed in
a particular way that brought

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this upon you.
Although you were victimized,

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it's your fault.
And that's a gaslighting

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construct.
So getting clear on that is

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critical.
Thank you so much for explaining

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that.
I know that was a phrase that

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just stood out to me so much in
your book because I know I've

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been guilty of it and I've had
so many people say that as part

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of their story.
And it's been something that so

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many of us have internalized.
And then after reading your book

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of really advocating for the
paradigm.

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And I know that's where the rest
of our conversation is going.

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But to just be very cognizant of
that phrase that I was bullied

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because and what we can do to
advocate for ourselves or to

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start to change that narrative.
And so I'm excited to see where

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the rest of our conversation is
going to get go with you as what

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we're going to learn about in
terms of this playbook and the

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script of how does this
gaslighting follow exactly a

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playbook that people have for
us.

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You write that gaslighting
follows a textbook pattern,

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especially in corporate or
institutional settings.

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Most targets do not realize
there is a script unfolding.

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Walk us through this, through
what the corporate playbook

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looks like.
What are the common steps?

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The corporate playbook, it's
constructed around the fact that

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we behave in certain ways when
abuse is occurring.

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And as Crystal was describing
it, we have these automatic

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responses and we're not taught
very much about them, so we it's

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hard for us to recognize them.
But when you have an abuse

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culture unfolding, which will
absolutely apply gaslighting to

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try and cover it up, essentially
try and make it seem like

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there's something else going on,
it's almost like a distraction.

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Basically, you have 4 pillars.
So in an abuse culture, in a

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corporation, the corporate
playbook is navigating the fact

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00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,360
that you will have humiliation,
fear, retaliation, and

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00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,480
favoritism.
When those four elements are at

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00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,200
play.
Gaslighting is required to cover

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00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,680
up the fact that you have a
highly destructive dynamic going

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00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,320
on, which is considered
inappropriate in today's world.

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00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,640
So we like to say things like we
have 0 tolerance for bullying

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00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,440
and you if you asked any
corporation if they had 0

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00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,560
tolerance for bullying, they
would reply in the affirmative.

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00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360
But the fact of the matter is
many workplaces, many

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professions, many institutions
are, are rife with bullying.

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It's even spilled into childhood
sports and schools.

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It's so normal and so rampant
that we have to really take a

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00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,040
step back and say to ourselves,
what is the playbook?

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00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,920
Why are they using it?
Who is it really to protect?

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00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,360
And in gaslighting fashion, you
will be told that it's to

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00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,840
protect the institution.
And if you take a step back and

255
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,560
you apply your critical
thinking, what you really want

256
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:51,560
to recognize is gaslighting is
designed to protect the leader.

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00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,440
The leader is complicit in the
gaslighting, complicit in not

258
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,560
dealing with the abuse, not
stopping it, not protecting

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00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,120
people.
And therefore they are working

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00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,160
double time to ensure that it's
all covered up.

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00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,360
It all hinges on silencing.
So you will have non disclosure

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00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,880
agreements being used because
you're not allowed to speak.

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00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,600
You will receive constructive
dismissal.

264
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,280
You cannot speak.
You need to go.

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00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,560
It's unbearable for you to stay
at work.

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You will simply be fired.
You will be potentially sued.

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00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,200
They can do so many things to
you.

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00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:31,520
And all of those things hinge on
keeping the lid on rampant abuse

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00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,120
and the facilitation of it by
gaslight.

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00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,520
I really like how in the book
you talked about if there's no

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00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,840
abuse, there's no negligence,
and that sentence really stood

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00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,200
out to me.
It really brought a huge

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00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,880
awareness of gaslighting.
Just that simple sentence, like

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00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,960
there's no negligence if there's
no abuse.

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00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,080
Fascinating.
Yeah, it's a really good point,

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00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,680
Heather, because it reminds us
how we're all human and we're

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00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,360
all very susceptible.
We're vulnerable to

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00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,520
manipulation, including leaders.
And leaders do not get training

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00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,440
when a leader is in position.
They would never imagine that

280
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,400
they're going to cover up.
They're going to cover up abuse

281
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,480
on their watch.
No, of course they would never

282
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,320
do that.
But they don't know that they're

283
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,160
going to be groomed while the
abuser is targeting the targets,

284
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,480
the abuser is grooming, the
leadership grooming in HR.

285
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,120
They're becoming such allies, so
close, so connected.

286
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,160
They see them outside of work
and they're building a, a false

287
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,800
presence.
This is how gaslighters operate.

288
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,440
And so I feel sorry for leaders,
but they end up covering up all

289
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,920
too often.
Now I'm wondering if we can

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00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,320
transition to going inside the
brain a little bit here of you

291
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,000
described the overarching goal
of bullying and gaslighting is

292
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,760
the idea is to essentially wreak
havoc on the brain.

293
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,280
Essentially, it's when we cause
so much confusion, the only

294
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,480
thing that the brain can do is
to essentially shut down all

295
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,160
systems.
It's a no go on the all fronts.

296
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,760
And so the brain cannot answer
the basic questions about what

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00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,280
is real, what is the reality
that the person is experiencing?

298
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,839
You're left to question
everything.

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00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,560
Your own memory of an event, is
what you're experiencing real?

300
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,599
Is it false?
Who you can trust?

301
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,840
You're questioning all aspects
of your day-to-day life,

302
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,800
especially in a workplace
setting or in a sports type of

303
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,400
setting, where these gaslighting
instances are very much more

304
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,080
common.
So what is happening

305
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,040
neurologically when someone is
chronically exposed type of

306
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,240
manipulation in the brain?
Can you walk us through that?

307
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,880
Yeah, as you would know,
Crystal, this is where the bully

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00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,000
brain and the gaslight brain
connect and come together.

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00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,240
Basically, if you can't, if you
think about the body, it's

310
00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,680
easier because we can't see our
brains.

311
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,960
We have a really hard time
imagining them sometimes.

312
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,400
But if you think of the body and
someone is constantly pulling

313
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,840
the carpet out from under you,
you are constantly falling down,

314
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,480
you're hurting yourself, you're
getting bruised, you're breaking

315
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,640
your bones, you can't stand
straight.

316
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,600
You start to hold yourself in a
particular way so as not to

317
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,520
fall.
This is what's happening on our

318
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,440
brain level, and it's really
important for people to

319
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,040
understand that the brain is
being physically damaged by all

320
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,240
these behaviors that do not
touch the body.

321
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,360
You start to be on high alert.
For example, if you were looking

322
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,400
at the brain on a brain scan,
you would see from decades of

323
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,440
research that person quite
likely has an enlarged amygdala.

324
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,960
That means their threat
detection system is getting the

325
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,440
resources that should go into
problem solving and creativity

326
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,480
and collaboration and
innovation, productivity.

327
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,480
But you can't put your brain
resources there because you're

328
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,200
funneling all your energy and
attention into the threat

329
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,480
detection system, because you
don't trust your environment,

330
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,520
you don't trust your leadership,
you don't trust a particular

331
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,080
colleague who's constantly doing
nefarious things.

332
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,800
And this hyper vigilance is
terrible for the brain.

333
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,800
Another physical thing going
back to what you were saying,

334
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,800
Crystal, you stop being able to
learn.

335
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,280
You don't remember, Your
memories are scrambled.

336
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,040
You don't know how to attach
emotional tags to them.

337
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,840
Is it short term memory?
Long term memory?

338
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,280
All of that is because you're
hippocampus, the seat of

339
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,360
learning and memory in the brain
is being bathed in the stress

340
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,040
hormone cortisol, and it's
starting to shrivel.

341
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,120
Instead of being healthy and
well and you trusted and feel

342
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,920
connected to your memory and
learning, it's getting

343
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,840
physically damaged by this
constant toxicity that you have

344
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,320
to deal with in the workplace.
And then let's look at one other

345
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,920
final clear indicator that they
see in the on the brain scans.

346
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,320
You have demyelination in your
corpus callosum.

347
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,560
Corpus callosum is how your left
and right brain hemisphere talk

348
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,080
to each other and they have
different perspectives on the

349
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,000
world.
And if they can't talk to each

350
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,640
other and it can't be efficient
and speedy, then you are going

351
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,520
to really not be able to
function properly.

352
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,200
And that's just three examples.
And when I talked to Doctor

353
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,280
Michael?
Merzinich about this, he said to

354
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,480
me and the research, as
neuroscientists we're restricted

355
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,680
to really look at one component
to the brain.

356
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,560
So we get our funding, we're
supposed to study the corpus

357
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,240
callosum, he said.
I would bet my house if the

358
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,760
corpus callosum is being damaged
in this way and we see it on a

359
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,240
brain scan, there's thirty other
indices in the brain of the harm

360
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,160
that's being done.
We're isolating these parts of

361
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,000
the brain, but the brain is a
vast network that works in all

362
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,400
together simultaneously, so you
can imagine the harm being done.

363
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:42,360
And I think just in hearing your
description, it's overwhelming.

364
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,640
People can understand why
they're overwhelmed and why at

365
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:51,000
times they could just be frozen
in time to an extent of why You

366
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,320
could understand why the stress
happened and the freeze almost

367
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,440
when people say time freezes or
stands still to an extent and

368
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,920
why you're going to have these
symptoms of burnout and fatigue.

369
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,520
And it can be cognitive and
physical symptoms manifest.

370
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,640
Psychological symptoms manifest.
The emotions will come out as

371
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,560
well.
And I wanted to point out

372
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,280
because in your book, you still
eloquently laid this out too, is

373
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,680
one of the myths, I think around
gaslighting is it happens to

374
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,560
people that are air quote,
unintelligent.

375
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,280
Why is this so destabilizing for
even intelligent or experienced

376
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,120
professionals?
Because it seems to be the myth

377
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,560
that this is for people that are
unintelligent or lack workplace

378
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,880
experience or experience in a
particular role.

379
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,680
Like it may be you change the
role and it's a new role for

380
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,520
your new industry.
And this is a myth that's

381
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,800
completely been blown out of the
water.

382
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,680
So would you like to lay notes
for that?

383
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,120
Because this came up numerous
times in your book, but people

384
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:57,160
will seem to give credit if this
is an experience that they've

385
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,400
had, they'll attribute it to one
of those factors.

386
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,360
Yeah, it's funny, it's counter
intuitive, but the very

387
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,320
experienced, very advanced, very
educated individual who's been

388
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,040
in the workplace for 20 odd
years, they are more at risk

389
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,120
than the newcomer, than the
person who's just transitioned

390
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,440
in.
And the reason being is they've

391
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,200
built so many, they've built
hundreds of thousands of

392
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,920
instances of connection,
community and trust between

393
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,080
themselves and the institution
and all of the colleagues and

394
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,680
the leadership.
So when all of a sudden they

395
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,720
find themselves betrayed, it is
an incredible shock to the

396
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,880
brain.
The brain cannot believe that

397
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,360
it's true.
And This is why the brain starts

398
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,400
to look inside.
It says, oh, I was bullied

399
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,200
because I've been betrayed
because I'm maltreated because.

400
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,400
And that's that is almost like a
defense mechanism.

401
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,480
Because for the brain to
suddenly look at the institution

402
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,440
and all these people that it has
relationships with and have to

403
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,080
acknowledge that these people
are consciously trying to harm

404
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,640
you is really difficult.
And this is where Doctor

405
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,840
Jennifer Freyd's idea of Blind
to Betrayal comes in.

406
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,080
She talks about family systems,
but if you think about it, the

407
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,000
workplace is structured like a
family system.

408
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,240
Your boss, your leadership, HR,
even that is the parental

409
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,560
figures.
And they you're utterly

410
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,560
dependent on them.
You're dependent on them like a

411
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,760
child, no matter how
experienced, how advanced, how

412
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,840
educated you are, they pay your
livelihood, plain and simple.

413
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,760
They put food on your table,
shelter over your head.

414
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,040
They control your career.
They control your reputation.

415
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,320
And one of the most poignant
things that you read about in

416
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,160
people who've been bullied in
Gaslight at work is the one

417
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,040
thing that really hurts the most
is that they're going to be,

418
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,400
they're going to lose their
family, they're going to lose

419
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,560
their community, all these
colleagues that they care about

420
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,720
and that care about them.
When you have an abuse culture

421
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,080
unfolding and it can start up at
any moment, when you have abuse

422
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,080
culture unfolding, people will
save themselves.

423
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,320
So these colleagues that love
you and care about you, you will

424
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,320
be surprised to watch them look
the other way.

425
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,160
And they're doing it so that
they can survive.

426
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,560
They're afraid.
They don't want to be the next

427
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,320
target.
They want to remain in a

428
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,000
favorite position.
They want to be a beneficiary of

429
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,320
those in power.
You see it happen in families

430
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,000
and you see it happen in the
workplace.

431
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,960
But yeah, I appreciate you
taking the time to explain and

432
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,200
debunk some of those myths
around gaslighting in the

433
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,080
workplace.
And I'm excited now to

434
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,760
transition to what are the
strategies that we can do to

435
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,360
protect our brain around
gaslighting because there are

436
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,360
things that we can do.
You outlined 6 proven ways to

437
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:44,080
see the truth.
I want to move through each

438
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,960
briefly so the listeners have
something concrete they can take

439
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,240
with them.
The proven way #1 was to

440
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,120
strengthen extraception.
What does that look like in

441
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,080
daily life?
Exteroception is our way that

442
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,600
our senses process all of this
massive amount of data that we

443
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,400
get from our environment and
other people.

444
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,680
This is a really hands on tool.
Everybody could start right

445
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,720
after this talk, which is to
sign up for Brain HQ.

446
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,560
So brainhq.com sounds Brain
headquarters, brainhq.com

447
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,360
independently.
There's over 100 research

448
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,280
projects that show that it
actually works.

449
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,520
It works on a brain level and
basically it's just gamified.

450
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,240
It's not really flashy or
anything.

451
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,320
It's designed by
neuroscientists, so it doesn't

452
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,280
have all the glam and glitter.
You put yourself through brain

453
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,120
fitness basically half an hour a
day.

454
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,360
The moment you hit 30 hours, the
research shows that you are very

455
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,240
likely to be reducing your
progression into dementias or

456
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,200
into Alzheimer's because you're
literally keeping your brain

457
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,280
fit.
Keeping your brain sharp and fit

458
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,680
is like working out on a brain
level, on a neurological level,

459
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,800
and that's really what you need
for gaslighting.

460
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,320
If someone's gaslighting you,
it's not helping you to go to

461
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,160
the gym and do a bunch of reps
That's good for a boxing match,

462
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,760
but it's not good for
gaslighting.

463
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,640
If you want to get really
sharpened senses and really

464
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,600
clear on the data that's coming
in and how you process it, you

465
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,960
want to be doing half an hour a
day of Brain HQ.

466
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,640
And I just want to say Crystal
and I have done Brain HQ and

467
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,520
it's, there are so many wonder.
It's a suite of all these

468
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,120
different exercises you can do
and there is so much research to

469
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,480
support its use.
So I we are big fans as well.

470
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,040
The proven way #2 was to nuance
introception.

471
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,520
How do we become more aware of
internal signals without letting

472
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,400
fear distort interpretation?
Interception is our internal

473
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,280
systems and how they talk to the
brain.

474
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,840
So really what you need to do to
develop your very skilled

475
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,760
interception is to have a
nuanced vocabulary.

476
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,120
Goes back to Heather and Crystal
really making us pay attention

477
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,560
to language.
That is what it's all about.

478
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,240
The more you have a rich
vocabulary to understand the

479
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,120
body signals, the better able
you are to conduct yourself in

480
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,320
life and to maintain your agency
and to be very clear about

481
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,520
what's happening.
So to give you a quick example,

482
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,280
we have a tendency to tell kids
a lot these days that they have

483
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,400
anxiety, they have an anxiety
disorder, and we say that word

484
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,240
to them over and over again.
Anxiety, we would be better off

485
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,240
by saying to them, And this is
not to act like it's any kind of

486
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,520
a mental health diagnosis.
That's important in that the

487
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,520
experts need to do that.
But for our own selves and the

488
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,640
way we talk to each other, we
want to say, hey, wait a second,

489
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,760
is this anxiety I'm feeling or
is it excitement?

490
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480
Is it anxiety or is it
nervousness?

491
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,080
Is it anxiety or am I feeling
fear?

492
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,200
And it's this kind of nuanced
vocab gives us much better

493
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,600
opportunities not only to
understand our internal signals,

494
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,760
but to make choices about our
behavior.

495
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,080
Proven way #3 was connect
neuroception.

496
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,280
How does understanding nervous
system safety change how we

497
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,240
design and lead workplaces?
The answer to this one is very

498
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,760
sweet because except it's
massively backed by brain

499
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,760
science, really.
If you want a healthy, happy,

500
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,560
high performing workplace, you
want to build Co regulation

501
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,560
amongst your colleagues and your
leadership and your management

502
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,080
and your HR.
Everybody wants to have Co

503
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,320
regulation happy, which is our
ability to calm down one

504
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,200
another's nervous systems.
We are mammals and through very

505
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,400
specific types of behaviors, we
can get everybody to let go of

506
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,800
high levels of stress, which are
extremely detrimental to our

507
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,200
brains and bodies.
Neuroception is our ability to

508
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,400
read the environment.
Every single person right here,

509
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,480
right now on this call has their
neuroception going like they do

510
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,600
their exteroception and their
interoception.

511
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,960
But your neuroception is going.
How safe is it?

512
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,920
And if you can answer, you know
what?

513
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,720
When I go to work, I feel safe.
It comes from kindness and

514
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,960
compassion and connection and we
all crave it and hunger for it

515
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,320
and our health depends on it.
All workplaces that want to have

516
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,400
healthy, happy, high performing
workplaces, you really need to

517
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,880
put an emphasis on connection
and compassion.

518
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,760
Proven way #4 was to choose
perception.

519
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,000
You use the term dishabituation
entrepreneur.

520
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,280
What does that mean in practice?
One of our brains greatest

521
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,880
weaknesses, vulnerabilities for
all of us is that we can

522
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,920
normalize or habituate to
anything.

523
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,200
And we've seen in history times
where people have habituated to

524
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,000
the most heinous and horrendous
behaviors that their brain

525
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,440
literally saw so frequently that
they normalize it as simply

526
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,520
doing a job.
I was following orders.

527
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,400
I was doing a job.
And that's what you'll hear

528
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,360
people actually say in a court
of law.

529
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,200
And that's how much our brains
can make terrible things like

530
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,400
highly abusive workplaces
normal.

531
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,520
And we talked about blind to
betrayal.

532
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,920
We look the other way because
it's how we survive.

533
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,520
It's how we keep getting our
paycheck.

534
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,840
I don't want to sound
judgmental, but it is a very at

535
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,280
risk thing that we do.
The dishabituation entrepreneur

536
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,800
is your best friend.
That's the person that comes in.

537
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,480
And This is why newcomers in the
workplace and newcomers into

538
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,720
one's country are so
advantageous.

539
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920
They bring that fresh energy and
that kind of critical eye and

540
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,160
they say, wait a SEC, why are
you guys doing this?

541
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,880
Why do you do it this way?
Why is the status quo?

542
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,480
And as soon as you get that kind
of skeptical question asking,

543
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,240
really thinking and pausing and
talking about stuff, you're

544
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,440
creating a dishabituation
moment, which is healthy.

545
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,520
Proven way #5 was to think slow.
How does slowing down decision

546
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,040
making protect us from
manipulation?

547
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,240
Another risk that our brains
present to us is that we are

548
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,600
always trying to conserve brain
energy.

549
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,280
Our brains have massive amounts
of work to do 24/7 and so they

550
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:56,760
love to put things on autopilot.
As we all know when we drive, if

551
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,440
we've been driving for quite a
long time, we no longer think

552
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,040
about it.
Unless something bad happens, we

553
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,480
are on autopilot.
We just don't even think about

554
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,680
it.
We think about work, we think

555
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,760
about our family, we think about
jobs and our To Do List.

556
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,160
We're not thinking about
driving.

557
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,160
We don't even remember driving
from A to B.

558
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,040
That's autopilot.
When the brain is trying to

559
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,960
conserve energy, it will lean on
things like bias.

560
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,440
You will make a decision based
on the fact that your brain just

561
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,080
says to you, you know what?
You know how that you can

562
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,560
believe someone's, You can
believe them because they're

563
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,040
really good looking.
That's how news reporters are,

564
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,720
right?
They look great.

565
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,040
And we believe that what they're
saying is true because they look

566
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,920
great.
We have the mistake of believing

567
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,160
that somebody in an expensive
suit is utterly trustworthy.

568
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,560
So, so we are not paying
attention to the fact that there

569
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,280
are snakes in suits.
And that is that's the term that

570
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,320
advanced psychologists use who
study psychopathology.

571
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,760
We will fall for the robes of a
religious figure.

572
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,840
We think that we can trust them
and do everything they say and

573
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,520
believe them because they're
dressed in the in these

574
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,880
particular robes.
And that's how quickly our brain

575
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,280
can make really serious
mistakes.

576
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,480
So again, if you're concerned
about gaslighting, you're

577
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,640
concerned about bullying
behaviors, you want to really

578
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,560
separate out the profession or
the prestige and the power and

579
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,320
the social standing credibility.
You want to separate all those

580
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,360
trappings out the nice outfit
from what is the person's track

581
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,360
record, what are they doing?
And you can write that down on a

582
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,000
piece of paper and see a very
large discrepancy sometimes.

583
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,080
I have learned so much today.
I really value your work.

584
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,400
Really, it's incredible.
The last proven way #6 was to

585
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,840
balance lateralization.
What happens when we over rely

586
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,720
on narrow rigid thinking instead
of integrating both hemispheres

587
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,280
of the brain?
The left hemisphere of the brain

588
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,200
I call the opportunist, and it's
what keeps us alive.

589
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,040
It's really important.
It's what makes us grasp

590
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,800
opportunities.
It's the part that puts food on

591
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,120
the table and the roof over the
head.

592
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,960
So opportunist left side of the
brain, really important.

593
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680
But as you say, Heather, it's a
very narrow vision.

594
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,760
You might even argue it's tunnel
vision.

595
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,800
And in the research they talk
about left brain hemisphere is

596
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,280
about getting, grabbing,
grasping, eating.

597
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,280
It's all about you.
You get locked into that

598
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,480
mentality.
And we see people in our world

599
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,000
today, one of the most tragic
versions of this is the

600
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,280
billionaire.
The hundreds of billions of

601
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,360
dollars is not enough.
They can't get enough, and you

602
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,240
see them driven to whatever they
have to do to get more or to

603
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,240
protect this pile of gold, as if
they become a dragon, they're no

604
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,800
longer human.
That's very left hemisphere.

605
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,280
Now we can remain really healthy
and really bonded to our our

606
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,680
planet into one another if we
keep the channel of

607
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,440
communication, the corpus
callosum that we talked about

608
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,520
open between the left hemisphere
and the right hemisphere,

609
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,760
because the right hemisphere is
a place of incredible bliss.

610
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,520
It's where the brain is super
connected to the vast universal

611
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,880
network.
It loves the planet, it loves

612
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,199
other species, it loves nature,
it loves all other humans.

613
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,040
It feels the divine.
It's a glorious part of the

614
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,320
brain to be in.
And so we want to never get

615
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,360
trapped in the left and tune out
the right.

616
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:18,639
It's.
Not healthy.

617
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:23,000
I feel like it's empowering to
know there are things that we

618
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,560
can do.
And I want to make sure we can

619
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,920
honor the end of the
conversation of where is this

620
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,920
going in terms of policy and big
picture thinking.

621
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,840
And I want to make sure I read a
quote from your book that I

622
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,960
thought stood out eloquently
around this issue.

623
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,360
We live in a society that does
not train us effectively how to

624
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,560
recognize the lives of and
gaslighting.

625
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,440
We tend to believe our brains
are hardwired and pervious to

626
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,600
verbal or social harm.
It is worth repeating, although

627
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,520
so many still believe that being
ignored, ostracized, mocked,

628
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:07,000
belittled, publicly humiliated,
laughed at, put down, demeaned,

629
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,400
degraded, threatened, betrayed,
and so on only hurts or

630
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,840
psychological makeup and our
emotional landscape.

631
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,800
It is actually physically
damaging our brain architecture

632
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,520
and function.
You argue that laws protect our

633
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,480
body at work, but we lack
effective laws to protect our

634
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,920
brains from psychological harm.
From your perspective, what are

635
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,440
current workplace policies out
of sync with modern

636
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,680
neuroscience?
To my mind, once you've read all

637
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,840
of this neuroscience research,
you walk around in a state of

638
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,280
shock and dismay that we are not
protected by laws.

639
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,200
The second we would be protected
by laws in the workplace from

640
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,720
this type of behavior that can
do physical damage to our

641
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,560
brains, we would have instant
education.

642
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,280
Everybody would get up to speed
on what is happening to the

643
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,840
brain when we do these
behaviors.

644
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,800
If many of us are raised to
believe that abuse is a

645
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,120
necessary evil for great, when
you believe that you will commit

646
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,480
heinous crimes against the brain
and the body because you don't

647
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,320
know that really you're doing
damage, you're not creating

648
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,200
greatness.
That's a lie.

649
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,040
That's absolute gaslighting
right there.

650
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,280
I'm extremely disappointed
personally in the dragging feet

651
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,480
of the policy makers.
And I want to ask because you

652
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,440
gave testimony in 2024 of why
that testimony was important.

653
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,600
And I have to admit, when I read
in your book the person that you

654
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,640
were up against and I
highlighted, he stated that

655
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,200
psychological abuse was about
mindset and integrity and thus

656
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,320
could not be assessed the same
way as physical harm.

657
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,360
Part of me wanted to take the
book that I was reading and just

658
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,600
smack myself in my own head of
what is this gentleman talking

659
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,200
about in terms of an argument
from neuroscience or anyone.

660
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,600
But I guess anyone can make the
arguments that they want.

661
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,520
So what was your eloquent
opposition to him and where is

662
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,360
that sitting in resistance and
challenges of the time?

663
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,480
We have more than enough
information about the ways in

664
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,360
which we can measure brain
damage.

665
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,720
We can measure it in all kinds
of different ways.

666
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,640
And as Doctor Michael Mersenich
says, the brain scan doesn't

667
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,560
lie.
And if you're in a world of

668
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,880
bullying and gaslighting, lies
and that is how your workplace

669
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,080
is constructed, there's nothing
more important than a brain

670
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,320
scan.
And we can see on a brain scan

671
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,480
when somebody is in the dark
triad.

672
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,960
We can see psychopathology on a
brain scan.

673
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,600
Why would we not insist that our
leader that we're handing the

674
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,440
military over to and the economy
and the nuclear codes, if we're

675
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,960
going to empower an individual
to have control over those

676
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,080
things, surely we would be
needing to have a brain scan

677
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,400
done to make sure that they're
not psychopathological.

678
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,200
We would want to be able to see
that and the fact that you have

679
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:07,560
a workplace lawyer who's saying,
no, we, we can't measure harm to

680
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,360
the brain.
That's mindset and integrity.

681
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,240
My response was simply, that's
not true.

682
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,160
That's not accurate.
I would like to respectfully say

683
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,920
you are wrong.
There's many ways that we can

684
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,680
look at extensive research that
documents the ways in which

685
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,520
normalized behaviors in the
workplace do brain damage,

686
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,280
physical damage to the brain.
It's visible on brain scans.

687
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,680
It's a fact.
And that's probably personally

688
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,040
gives the rub.
So I've had the chance to be on

689
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,640
your podcast and share a bit
about my own gas lighting

690
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,840
stories.
And you have given a platform to

691
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,680
many people as well called the
Phone Cast Podcast.

692
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,200
So if people have heard what
you've said and your work has

693
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,280
resonated with them, where can
they follow you and learn more

694
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,720
about that?
In the show notes below, I will

695
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,960
give a link for them to find
your podcast so that they can

696
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,840
TuneIn and hear other people's
stories and the work that you

697
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,200
also advocate with your Co host
Anita.

698
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,200
But where else can they find you
online?

699
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,960
My website is the Bully Brain,
Bully brain.com really easy to

700
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,200
find.
I write a regular series for

701
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,800
Psychology Today called The
Bully Brain and I also write The

702
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,080
Bully Brain brains sub stock
where I talk mostly about almost

703
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,520
always about gaslighting and you
can reach out to me on my

704
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,960
website.
I have a contact form.

705
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,560
All my stuff pretty much is
quickly.

706
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,960
Found there.
Thank you.

707
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,240
And Heather and I always like to
end with the takeaways that we

708
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:32,600
both have found of what we
thought were the highlights of

709
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,400
the book that we'd like to
reflect back to you.

710
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,720
Our favorite quotes from your
own writing, Doctor Frazier.

711
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,920
So, Heather, you can go first.
We can hope that with training,

712
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,080
stress reduction, shift in
cultural sanctions and a

713
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,520
dedicated adherence to truth
over the lies of bullying,

714
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,080
gaslighting and institutional
complicity, we can see a

715
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,640
resurgence of effective empathy
and with it, holistic brain

716
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,360
health.
And I just wanted to add a very

717
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,200
personal thank you to how your
work has changed my life, my

718
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,240
family's life.
When we spoke, when you came on

719
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,760
and did the bullied brain, we
talked during that and talked to

720
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,200
offline.
And you shared such valuable

721
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,400
insights.
And at the time, my daughter was

722
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,040
being bullied and we talked
about empathy and I gave her a

723
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,760
wider lens to look at what was
going on, implementing the

724
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,520
things that you talked about in
the book.

725
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,960
I am so happy to report two
years later, the bully who was

726
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,400
also surrounded by the community
and a lot of good mentorship

727
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,000
happened, is no longer a bully.
The atmosphere is a

728
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,200
collaborative atmosphere and it
has served the her whole

729
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,600
community at school so well.
So your work, it is so

730
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,320
incredibly valuable and I just
really appreciate you

731
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,920
highlighting these important
issues, but then also giving us

732
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,040
tools to handle these things.
Yeah, so thank you so much for

733
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,560
being with us today.
And the quote I pulled was a

734
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,680
little bit more towards the end
of the book as well of the

735
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,440
combination of bullying and
neuroplasticity.

736
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,720
So bullying and gaslighting
target your brain.

737
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,440
Most of us don't know the basic
facts and vocabulary of brain

738
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,240
fitness, but it follows the same
principle.

739
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,120
It doesn't matter when you were
lied to, when you were attacked

740
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,440
or maltreated.
You can set in motion, repair

741
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,480
and recover.
You can come back even stronger

742
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,040
from the injustice tomorrow.
The person that you see in the

743
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,600
mirror can be stronger, more
capable, more livelier, more

744
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,320
powerfully centered, and still
growing person.

745
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:45,040
Neuroplasticity is incredibly
hopeful and what we tried to do

746
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,920
was we put together a Neuro Nilk
prescription.

747
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,880
So we had Doctor Frazier sign
off on the Neuro Nilk

748
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,920
prescription from the Gas Flip
brain and that is to keep your

749
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,320
eyes wide open.
Learn the language about

750
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,840
gaslighting, bullying, and
institutional complicity.

751
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,320
Pay attention to repeated
behavior patterns.

752
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,160
Manipulation often follows a
script.

753
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,040
Awareness can strengthen our
cognitive clarity.

754
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,360
Jen, I want to make sure to ask
you, what is your final message

755
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,120
that you'd like to share with
our Neuro Nook today?

756
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:25,960
I just want to echo what both
you and Heather have said, which

757
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,960
is that as long as we remember
that we have neuroplasticity, we

758
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,280
can change our brains until the
very last day we're on the

759
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,520
planet.
We can change bullying in a

760
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,000
school.
We can change the child that is

761
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,760
doing the bullying, the adult
that's doing the bullying, the

762
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,240
receiving end, the observers or
bystanders, All of that can

763
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,800
change.
It's the most empowering and

764
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,680
healthy and remarkable thing
that we have today.

765
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,920
So if people are feeling in a
little bit despair about the way

766
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,400
the world is going right now,
just know that it just all of us

767
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,200
working together to bring about
change is actually very possible

768
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,400
from a neuroscience point of
view.

769
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,720
Just my final thing I would say
is even though it takes brain

770
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:12,120
energy, if you're at all
worried, if you're getting some

771
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,560
messaging from yourself, your
inner system that there's

772
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,040
something wrong, even if you
don't have the exact vocabulary

773
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,280
or anything, trust yourself and
take time to ask yourself the

774
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,720
question over and over again.
Why do I believe what is being

775
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:28,680
said?
Why do I believe it?

776
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,840
That's the key.
That's being very skeptical.

777
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,600
And yes, it's time consuming and
takes energy, but it's worth it.

778
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,640
And we know from our
conversation today that

779
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,160
gaslighting loses power when
it's named.

780
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,600
I hope that today we move from
some confusion to clarity, from

781
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,280
isolation to shared
understanding, and from reaction

782
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,600
to science informed action.
We recognize that these

783
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,000
conversations are not easy.
They asked us to look at

784
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,400
uncomfortable realities.
They asked us to speak up.

785
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,360
They asked us to protect our
brains and the brains of others.

786
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,240
Thank you to every person here
showing up as a choice.

787
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,440
Learning the science is a
commitment and taking the steps

788
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,040
to protect your brain is an act
of leadership.

789
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,880
Awareness is the first step,
action is the next.

790
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,800
Take good care of yourselves and
each other.

791
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,760
Doctor Frazier, thank you for
sharing your brilliant brain and

792
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,200
our neuronal community to launch
Brain Week 2026.

793
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,400
We are grateful for the way you
lead with science, integrity,

794
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,000
and conviction.
As a trusted friend of the

795
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,080
Virtual Brain Health Center,
thank you for investing your

796
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,480
time and energy into your
personal brain care by listening

797
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,560
to today's episode of the Let's
Talk Brain Health Podcast.

798
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,160
I hope our conversation gave you
fresh insights, a bit of

799
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,920
inspiration, or practical steps
that you can take on your own

800
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,120
personal brain care journey.
If you enjoyed today's

801
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,360
conversation, I'd like to ask
you to please share this episode

802
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,640
with someone who could benefit
from it or consider leaving us a

803
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,720
review.
If you have questions or a topic

804
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,840
in brain health you'd like me to
explore, please e-mail me

805
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,960
anytime at podcast at
virtualbrainhealthcenter.com.

806
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,880
I'd love to hear from you.
We have so many more exciting

807
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,560
topics ahead, and I can't wait
to continue this lifelong

808
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,560
journey of better brain health
together with you and our

809
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,400
growing virtual community.
Until next time, remember to

810
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,640
give your brain the care it
deserves and make your brain

811
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:30,920
health a priority.